Analyze the .500 S&W as a RIFLE round.

[Futo Inu]

The new .500 S&W is an awful lot in a handgun, but in a carbine, is there or is there not a niche for it? How does it compare with .45-70, .444 marlin, .450 Marlin, etc. Obviously it's got a little larger bore diameter, which could have merit in certain situations. What about the .500 Alaskan or other wildcat-ish rounds? Is there any significant ballistic difference? What types of carbines would it be best suited for? I would think turnbolts mainly - wouldn't most pumps and levers be using actions that are too weak for this round? What use? The proverbial Grizzly-stopper perhaps?

P.S. On another thread, I said something like "if I bought one, it'd be a Freedom Arms" - I meant Magnum Research - don't think Freedom has one yet, though they'd probably make you one.

 

[raz-0]

well the .50 alaskan is used in a lever gun.

looking around briefly online, I find retail 50 alaskan with a 450gr slug with 2100 fps muzzle velocity and 4406 ft. lbs of muzzle energy. Not to mention load data for a 600gr moving at 1739 fps. The folks that invented it in theory see it to you in a 450gr, 2050fps, 4200ft/lb version.

The S&W
I've seen at most a 440gr bullet at 1675 fps and 2580 ft/lbs. theres some load data for slightly hotter, and heavier and slower as well.

I don't think it has anything on .50 alaskan, and thus could likely be shot through a lever gun capable of digesting said cartidge without anyone cowering in fear too much.

 

[DMK]

In Popular Mechanics this month, CorBon said they designed the round well under it's potential so that it wouldn't be too much in a handgun. They met S&W's specs for it without even breaking a sweat.

It seems like it could be loaded a lot hotter than it is. It's also a relatively brand new cartridge. Surely they are going to start out on the conservative side to build confidence that it's safe and reliable then get a bit braver with it later.

With some slower burning powder, it looks like could be a real performer in a 16.5" carbine barrel.

http://www.corbon.com/500s&W.htm

 

[goon]

Maybe in a short Falling-Block action?
Oh wait, someone already had that idea.
Well, it worked for him, so why couldn't it work for us?

 

[JohnKSa]

It sounds to me like it's going to be very similar to the .45-70.

It can probably be loaded hotter in a rifle, and will get a boost from more barrel length, but I'm guessing it's not going to break 2000fps with a 440 grainer.

Big bore straight wall cases don't get all that much faster in a long barrel.

One other thing to consider is recoil. The 45-70 can be loaded to very high performance in a strong action (like the Ruger #1) but recoil becomes a major issue. Those in the know usually admit that recoil becomes the limiting factor when the action is strong enough to really hotrod the round.

 

[JShirley]

I was just thinking last night, how cool a .50 AE bolt carbine (and pistol or AOW) would be. Easier because the AE is not a rimmed cartridge.

 

[Robert inOregon]

500 S&W cannot be loaded in a modern lever gun. Pressure already exceeds most popular lever action's specifications. Cartridges like 45-70 only generate 40000 CUP for modern actions and the big S&W cartridge goes up another 10000 CUP. Same reason why Marlin and Winchester never chambered for 454 Casull. Only Puma and Browning have lever actions that can handle this cartridge.

 

[Preacherman]

Overall length would also be a problem in a typical lever-action, methinks. Perhaps something like the Savage 99 with a non-tubular magazine might fix that?

If you used such a rifle, of course, you could load .50 BMG bullets...

 

[Snowdog]

That's it, an APIT from your hog rifle.

 

[goon]

The Savage action might be a strong enough design to handle it.

 

[John Ross]

"If you used such a rifle, of course, you could load .50 BMG bullets... "

No. They are .510" diameter, not .500".

"It sounds to me like it's going to be very similar to the .45-70.
It can probably be loaded hotter in a rifle, and will get a boost from more barrel length, but I'm guessing it's not going to break 2000fps with a 440 grainer. Big bore straight wall cases don't get all that much faster in a long barrel."

A load that will go 1750 with a 450 in the S&W will go 2050 in a 20" rifle barrel. You don't want to load the .500 any hotter than for the revolver unless you're building on a bolt or falling block action.

The .50 Alaskan is .450" longer, so it will beat the .500.

If they build a lever gun for it, they need to make sure it will swallow loads that are 2.320" long OAL, or else they will cramp its potential compared to the revolver.

JR, the .500 Specialist

 

[raz-0]

OK, I'm not getting something here, so I'd appreciate it if you folks could educate me on the subject.

It seems to me that the .50 alaskan cartridge is putting a fair ammount more powder in a somewhat biger cartridge than the .500 magnum. I would think this would result in a cartidge that produces similar pressures or greater than the .500 magnum.

The folks at wildwest guns clearly cram the .50 alaskan into a marlin 1895 action. So why wouldn't you be able to put the .500 magnum in the same action? Dp they seriously modify the internals or something? Or am I just ingorant about something regarding the differences between the two cartiridges. People seem to be suggesting that the design of the action wouldn't tolerate it, and I can imagine them beefing up the internals, but not sompletely redoing them if there was something inherently too weak to deal with it.



http://www.wildwestguns.com

cheack out the guide gun for reference.

 

[WonderNine]

My shoulder hurts just reading this thread.

 

[John Ross]

Raz-O: "It seems to me that the .50 alaskan cartridge is putting a fair amount more powder in a somewhat bigger cartridge than the .500 magnum. I would think this would result in a cartridge that produces similar pressures or greater than the .500 magnum."

The conclusion does not follow the first statement. The .50 Alaskan is lower pressure than the .500 S&W, just as the larger .450 Nitro Express is lower pressure than the .458 Winchester.

"The folks at wildwest guns clearly cram the .50 alaskan into a marlin 1895 action. So why wouldn't you be able to put the .500 magnum in the same action?"

Physically, I'm sure you can. The question is whether the action can take the pressure of the .500 on a regular basis: Max 60,000 PSI on a strain gage (about 50,000 CUP) as opposed to what the Alaskan produces, about 10K-15K less.

"Do they seriously modify the internals or something? Or am I just ingorant about something regarding the differences between the two cartridges. People seem to be suggesting that the design of the action wouldn't tolerate it, and I can imagine them beefing up the internals, but not completely redoing them if there was something inherently too weak to deal with it."

I don't know. Someone will have to try, and we'll see. I do know that Winchester tried to make their 94 in .454 Casull and it didn't work out at the high Casull pressure, so they never released it. Now Rossi makes a M92 clone in .454 and it works fine. Better steels? I don't know.

JR, the .500 Specialist

 

[raz-0]

OK, so the pressure is lower, I looked around, but couldn't find an answer on that anyplace.

 

[buttrap]

they pretty much did that 100 some years ago....1886 winchester with some of the hot winchester .50 cal. rounds.