And here we go Elephants to be culled in Zimbabwe.
- Thread starter H&Hhunter
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So far all of the reasons for the elephant herds blossoming are far too simplistic
I AM NOT AN EXPERT>I DO NOT WISH TO ARGUE.
Hunting is a useful tool to manage some populations of animals. If i had a rich uncle die I would be back on a plane to Africa asap. And not just for hunting elephants.
Human population growth has drastically reduced the amount of land available for the large herd animals of Africa.
The animals have had traditional migration routes that do not conform with political boundaries. These migration routes allowed huge population to live on the ground which would not have supported those numbers had the animals been static. The climate of Africa is such that different areas are able to support large numbers of animals at differing times.
Changes in the human population have included decreases in nomadism, increases in farming and feed based ranching. These changes have tied people to specific plots of land and to specific crops which are naturally defended by the farmers. If these parcels are in the natural migration routes of game animals, then at some point there will be conflicts between animal and human.
Political decisions involved in land reallocation have dramatically altered the landscapes as well. Where as in the past large areas of ranches and farms were managed by small numbers of reasonably educated and informed people who had the capacity to understand the impacts and implications of actions. This system has been replaced by many small plots managed by many people of limited education, experience and understanding of the cause and effects of their actions.
AIDS is going to cause even greater problems in Africa in the future than the 20 million or more people it has killed so far. Another 25 million in sub- Saharan Africa have it now that have not yet died and how many more will get it is unknown.
The hardest hit segment has been the urban middle class and the women, the mothers. The urban middle class was the educated segment of african society. With this segment nearly destroyed there is no foundation for any development of a modern society. Africa has not had the social taboos about sexual adventures that our society has had. The rate of transmission was astounding in the early and mid years of the AIDS crisis from an epidemiological standpoint. The biggest issue to hit Africa is hitting now, a generation or more of parentless children. Children of the street growing into adults having children with no idea how to be parents themselves. My friends who live in Africa claim this could be the end of society as they know it. Other concerns could be the abandonment of traditional (colonial) boundaries. Increases in tribal warfare, failures to recognise international treaties, breakdowns in the shaky AIDS prevention systems now in place.
When Man tries to alter the natural order of animal life the consequences can be devastation. Just because we can build a park and force animals to live in does not mean that we should do it.
Now I believe that having affluent hunters heading to africa to pay to help with the culling would be a idea than some game officer driving a jeep mounting a GP machine gun into a herd and then opening fire. I have to say also that Mugabe and his "land reforms" will be the death of the country and yes I would enjoy open season on him and his low life thugs.
But his opportunity for power was fueled by a callous disregard for any type of reforms that might have made sense by the previous regime.
Nothing I have said here is meant to be inflammatory or conflicting, only that the issues in Africa are immense and complicated.
I AM NOT AN EXPERT>I DO NOT WISH TO ARGUE.
Hunting is a useful tool to manage some populations of animals. If i had a rich uncle die I would be back on a plane to Africa asap. And not just for hunting elephants.
Human population growth has drastically reduced the amount of land available for the large herd animals of Africa.
The animals have had traditional migration routes that do not conform with political boundaries. These migration routes allowed huge population to live on the ground which would not have supported those numbers had the animals been static. The climate of Africa is such that different areas are able to support large numbers of animals at differing times.
Changes in the human population have included decreases in nomadism, increases in farming and feed based ranching. These changes have tied people to specific plots of land and to specific crops which are naturally defended by the farmers. If these parcels are in the natural migration routes of game animals, then at some point there will be conflicts between animal and human.
Political decisions involved in land reallocation have dramatically altered the landscapes as well. Where as in the past large areas of ranches and farms were managed by small numbers of reasonably educated and informed people who had the capacity to understand the impacts and implications of actions. This system has been replaced by many small plots managed by many people of limited education, experience and understanding of the cause and effects of their actions.
AIDS is going to cause even greater problems in Africa in the future than the 20 million or more people it has killed so far. Another 25 million in sub- Saharan Africa have it now that have not yet died and how many more will get it is unknown.
The hardest hit segment has been the urban middle class and the women, the mothers. The urban middle class was the educated segment of african society. With this segment nearly destroyed there is no foundation for any development of a modern society. Africa has not had the social taboos about sexual adventures that our society has had. The rate of transmission was astounding in the early and mid years of the AIDS crisis from an epidemiological standpoint. The biggest issue to hit Africa is hitting now, a generation or more of parentless children. Children of the street growing into adults having children with no idea how to be parents themselves. My friends who live in Africa claim this could be the end of society as they know it. Other concerns could be the abandonment of traditional (colonial) boundaries. Increases in tribal warfare, failures to recognise international treaties, breakdowns in the shaky AIDS prevention systems now in place.
When Man tries to alter the natural order of animal life the consequences can be devastation. Just because we can build a park and force animals to live in does not mean that we should do it.
Now I believe that having affluent hunters heading to africa to pay to help with the culling would be a idea than some game officer driving a jeep mounting a GP machine gun into a herd and then opening fire. I have to say also that Mugabe and his "land reforms" will be the death of the country and yes I would enjoy open season on him and his low life thugs.
But his opportunity for power was fueled by a callous disregard for any type of reforms that might have made sense by the previous regime.
Nothing I have said here is meant to be inflammatory or conflicting, only that the issues in Africa are immense and complicated.
OP
OP
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Pete,
All that you have said is true and most of it has been addressed at one time or another on other elephant/African threads. But what I am pointing out is very simple.
The simple fact of the matter is we (we being hunters and conservationists) have been telling the world that unless proper management is put into place that thousands of elephants are going to die either from starvation or they will need to be culled.
They (being bleeding heart soccer moms, animal rights activists and lefties in general) have been doing there level headed best to stop any and all conservation/mangament of elephants because they through diverisve and untrue propoganda have convinced the American public that elephants are on the brink of extinction. And that they are far too nobel an animal to be hunted by mere men.
When in fact the elephants are more numerous in southern africa now than they have been in the last 30 years. Their population is rapidily growing and outstripping the available holding capacity of the land.
The reason that the elephant population is growing at such a rapid rate are two fold. One the international ban on commercial ivory sales. A GOOD THING AND A DESPERATLEY NEEDED THING. Two there was never a proper mangement scheme put into effect to control the growing population of elephants. Or more realistically every time a logical plan to control the population has been introduced it has quickly been quashed by various bambi organizations from around the world.
Now it is to late to manage this precious resource by conventional game mangement techniques. It's time to bring in the machine guns and helicopters.
All of the various antihunting bleeding heart SOB's who've been fighting against the proper management (read hunting) of elephants need to be be rewarded for their time and trouble.
I think we should buy them all a ticket to Zimbabwe so they can accompany a kill team in on a herd of elephants and be there when all that is left standing are the new born calfs griping their dead mother's tail's then you can hand the little leftie bleeding heart a rifle and have them finish the job THEY created.
I love and respect elephants and it pains me to see them shot down by a culling team cows, calfs, bulls the whole family group has to be killed at once or you have serious trouble in the future.
ALL OF THIS COULD have been avoided if only we were allowed to manage them during the last ten years. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
I don't understand why otherwise rational people understand this concept on nearly any other species but when you mention the word elephant their f'ing brains vapor lock...
PS
This rant is not targeted at anyone on this site in particular this is a general public rant....Thank you for your understanding.
All that you have said is true and most of it has been addressed at one time or another on other elephant/African threads. But what I am pointing out is very simple.
The simple fact of the matter is we (we being hunters and conservationists) have been telling the world that unless proper management is put into place that thousands of elephants are going to die either from starvation or they will need to be culled.
They (being bleeding heart soccer moms, animal rights activists and lefties in general) have been doing there level headed best to stop any and all conservation/mangament of elephants because they through diverisve and untrue propoganda have convinced the American public that elephants are on the brink of extinction. And that they are far too nobel an animal to be hunted by mere men.
When in fact the elephants are more numerous in southern africa now than they have been in the last 30 years. Their population is rapidily growing and outstripping the available holding capacity of the land.
The reason that the elephant population is growing at such a rapid rate are two fold. One the international ban on commercial ivory sales. A GOOD THING AND A DESPERATLEY NEEDED THING. Two there was never a proper mangement scheme put into effect to control the growing population of elephants. Or more realistically every time a logical plan to control the population has been introduced it has quickly been quashed by various bambi organizations from around the world.
Now it is to late to manage this precious resource by conventional game mangement techniques. It's time to bring in the machine guns and helicopters.
All of the various antihunting bleeding heart SOB's who've been fighting against the proper management (read hunting) of elephants need to be be rewarded for their time and trouble.
I think we should buy them all a ticket to Zimbabwe so they can accompany a kill team in on a herd of elephants and be there when all that is left standing are the new born calfs griping their dead mother's tail's then you can hand the little leftie bleeding heart a rifle and have them finish the job THEY created.
I love and respect elephants and it pains me to see them shot down by a culling team cows, calfs, bulls the whole family group has to be killed at once or you have serious trouble in the future.
ALL OF THIS COULD have been avoided if only we were allowed to manage them during the last ten years. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
I don't understand why otherwise rational people understand this concept on nearly any other species but when you mention the word elephant their f'ing brains vapor lock...
PS
This rant is not targeted at anyone on this site in particular this is a general public rant....Thank you for your understanding.
HankB
Member
If one is serious about learning about elephant population cycles and the consequences of elephant overpopulation, a good introduction is given in the first part of Ron Thomson's book Mahohboh.
In addition to several decades of work in national parks and wildlife mangement organizations in Africa, Ron Thompson has a diploma in Field Ecology from the University of Rhodesia, and was Provincial Game Warden-in-Charge of Hwange National Park. I'd say he ought to know what he's about.
(The book was an interesting read, too.)
In addition to several decades of work in national parks and wildlife mangement organizations in Africa, Ron Thompson has a diploma in Field Ecology from the University of Rhodesia, and was Provincial Game Warden-in-Charge of Hwange National Park. I'd say he ought to know what he's about.
(The book was an interesting read, too.)
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
While nowhere near as noticeable, we once had the same problem in the southern U.S. with alligators. Over-hunting, followed by a total ban on hunting, followed by a population explosion. Residential expansion into once-wild areas led to conflicts, and finally the public at large allowed the wildlife biologists to do what had been desired for a number of years. Now, "the system" seems to have things in reasonable balance.
What I've long seen as a major problem with the anti-hunting crowd is that they do not understand the principle of "carrying capacity" of habitat. For that matter, it's been a long struggle with the administrative types in wildlife agencies (separate from the wildlife biologists), just to get season limits in line with local populations.
Anti-hunters are dramatically concerned about the fate of any one individual animal. Hunters are concerned with the health of entire species...
I don't think it's inaccurate to say that Felix Salter and Walt Disney have been the two greatest enemies of real-world wildlife management. The "humanization" of wild animals has created a distorted picture that all too many indoor-people believe is real.
Art
What I've long seen as a major problem with the anti-hunting crowd is that they do not understand the principle of "carrying capacity" of habitat. For that matter, it's been a long struggle with the administrative types in wildlife agencies (separate from the wildlife biologists), just to get season limits in line with local populations.
Anti-hunters are dramatically concerned about the fate of any one individual animal. Hunters are concerned with the health of entire species...
I don't think it's inaccurate to say that Felix Salter and Walt Disney have been the two greatest enemies of real-world wildlife management. The "humanization" of wild animals has created a distorted picture that all too many indoor-people believe is real.
Art
nico
Member
I think that's true for some, but there are also people out there who understand carrying capacity but would argue the only reason the carrying capacity is "so low" is because humans have taken up the animals' original habitat and that the real solution is to remove humans from the area. Of course, these types would only advocate forcing someone else out of their home.
jefnvk
Member
I'm suprised no one pointed out the other obvious part of this. Before, the countries were making money off the hunting of Elephant, and keeping them in line regarding the population size. I'd imagine that is a big chunk of change no longer available to the parks department, and the result is still the same; elephants have to be killed.
OP
OP
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Atticus,
We being big game hunters, guides, professional hunters, outfitters and even park service personale have been beging, pleading and petitioning for this for the last ten years.
They being the various wildlife authroities have been reluctant to do it because of the political pressure they've recived from various anti hunting Lobbies from around the world.
And yes now it is too late.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
To illustrate just how bad the human side of the problem is:
About 10 or 12 years ago, National Geographic had a special on elephants. A quite knowledgeable young lady was in several of the scenes, explaining the behavior and "life style" of elephants.
The program gave time to the hunting and the advantages of the fee-splitting system with villages, and the beneficial results to habitat and populations and control of poaching.
The program closed with the young lady saying that she understood the benefits of the fee/hunting system. However, because elephants were such noble beasts, she'd rather see them become extinct than be hunted...
Art
About 10 or 12 years ago, National Geographic had a special on elephants. A quite knowledgeable young lady was in several of the scenes, explaining the behavior and "life style" of elephants.
The program gave time to the hunting and the advantages of the fee-splitting system with villages, and the beneficial results to habitat and populations and control of poaching.
The program closed with the young lady saying that she understood the benefits of the fee/hunting system. However, because elephants were such noble beasts, she'd rather see them become extinct than be hunted...
Art
Leaky Waders
Member
To me, the problem with elephant hunting, is having a house big enough to display your mounts
Seriously though...I think that most anti-hunters just bandwagon from cute furry beast to cute furry beast.
I like to duck hunt. I don't see anti-hunters hanging wood duck boxes. Or making/donating for hen houses. I don't see them buying duck stamps simply to support the conservation effort, regardless if they are in the States to hunt that year. I don't see them educating themselves about predators or carying capacity or the need to shoot snow geese to help other species survive...
Now...I'm not an elephant hunter...I just couldn't get into it...I mean I think I could manage the comeback call and lonesome matriarch, but damned if I'm gonna carry a sack of cork elephant decoys. More power to those who do
V/R,
LW
Seriously though...I think that most anti-hunters just bandwagon from cute furry beast to cute furry beast.
I like to duck hunt. I don't see anti-hunters hanging wood duck boxes. Or making/donating for hen houses. I don't see them buying duck stamps simply to support the conservation effort, regardless if they are in the States to hunt that year. I don't see them educating themselves about predators or carying capacity or the need to shoot snow geese to help other species survive...
Now...I'm not an elephant hunter...I just couldn't get into it...I mean I think I could manage the comeback call and lonesome matriarch, but damned if I'm gonna carry a sack of cork elephant decoys. More power to those who do
V/R,
LW
It would be nice to get a hold of some video of the culling and spread it widely across the net...perhaps the PETA type boards (PITA if you prefer) and other supposed animal lover sites would be a good place to park them....including a post such as, "Here ya go folks ...here's the fruit of your efforts". You know it will never be seen on Animal Planet or Nat'l Geo. or anywhere else.
nico
Member
That would be a good idea Atticus, if we were talking about logical people. The response your suggestion would receive would probably either be attacking you for showing such graphic footage without any acknowledgement of your point or would be analogous to sticking their fingers in their ears and singing. Either way you wouldn't get your point across and you'd be banned from the board.
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