Why the aversion to hunting elephants?

[H&Hhunter]

I would absolutely love to, but like many here an African hunt would cost more than I make in a year. Most of us are just working stiffs with kids and mortgages.

From what little research I've done, and none recently, you're looking at $50,000 USD and up for an African hunt by the time the dust clears.

Corriea & Sunray,

I am going to be a bit abrupt here and nip this misconception in the butt right here and now.
You can do a quality plains game hunt in Africa for under $5000 no problem.
You can do a real nice dangerous game hunt for buffalo or tuskless cow elephant for under $10,000 and that is after the dust has cleared.

If you want to spend $50,000 on a hunt you can but it would be a fullmeal full bag deal with elephant, lion, leapord, buff and all the plains game you could stand.

Corriea,
I am a working stiff as well with two kids and a mortage. Hunting africa is cheaper nowdays than many hunts right here in the good ole USA. It's all a matter of priorities. In any case my question is why would a hunter be morally opposed to the legal sport hunting of hunting and killing of elephants? It really has notthing to do with anybodies finances.

Now I think I'll have my servants get me my smoking jacket and slippers so that I can review the financials around my vast empire.


12-34,

I agree with you and you should go hunt buff soon it's an unbelievable experience and unless you make less than $6000,00 a year you can even do it for less than you make in a year.

NRA and other,

All of the leagally killed elephants that I know of are processed for food.


I don't mean to be to rough with anybody. I would just like to clear up the price missconception about African hunting. It's not free and it will cost some money, but it's way more affordable than many think. I believe that Africa is the best hunting buy in the world. And it is available to all budgets.

I meet all sorts and book hunts for all income levels. I've booked cops, butchers and retired military people. I've also booked ungoddly rich people. But the fact of the matter is Africa is really quite an obtainable goal for most any hunter with the desire.

 

[Kestrel]

Elephant meat? I didn't know people ate the meat. What is it like? (I'm sure it tastes like squirrel, since chicken tastes so much like squirrel...)

Steve

 

[ARperson]

Elephants multiply like rabbits....

This is totally wrong. Elephants, being the large land mammals that they are, have one of the longest gestational periods of any animal, let alone of mammals, running on close to 2 years. And they mate later in life relative to other mammals (particularly rabbits), and they have fewer young per birth than rabbits do (one, maybe two, for as you said yourself, they can strip the local food sources down to nothing). And to make matters even worse, the rearing time for elephant young is quite long as well, running into multiple years. Meaning that from the point of conception to the "hit the road, youngin", there can be as much as 4 years. Aside from the mammalian nature of the reproductive systems, there isn't anything in elephant reproduction that can be compared to rabbit reproduction. If you are using this as a justification of hunting, better find some new info.

That being said, I want to make sure that it is clear I am not opposed to hunting elephants in principle. No Dumbo syndrome for me. But I do find it annoying as hell when completely inaccurate information is given, particularly as a justification for certain action.

 

[BigG]

...multiply like rabbits

I think that is a figure of speech that means they are very destructive to the habitat if unchecked. Of course anybody with an encyclopedia can find out it takes two years to gestate an elephant calf.

How does it taste? According to Pondoro Taylor, it is very VERY chewy. In other words, among the toughest meat you'll ever try to masticate. He says africans love it.

 

[H&Hhunter]

But I do find it annoying as hell when completely inaccurate information is given, particularly as a justification for certain action.

ARperson,

Yes I am aware that in the order Proboscidea and in the species Loxodonta Africana does not mate & multiply exactly like a rabbit. This was a figure of speech. But thank you for picking out this inaccuracy as we wouldn't want any of our members to think they could start an elephant farm with just a few elephants and have it grow into a major elephant population anytime soon.

However, elephants in a healthy non stressed and low preditory enviroment can grow in numbers at an alrmingly fast rate. This is especially true when faced with limited range as this enormus land mamal takes a large range to keep up with it's caloric needs. And given the fact that elephants have ineffcient digestive systems means that they are forced to eat alot. All of this combined in a limited range calls for a limited number of elephants.

The fact of the matter is this. There are to many elephants in regards to the lands capability to carry them. I did not use the highest numbers that are published as they are really astounding. Wenge national park has mades claims that they have a carrying capacity of around 18,000 elephants they are currently carry around 60,000.

The reason that we have so many is that the legalized commercial harvest of elephants was stopped back in the 80's by pressure from the Leaky foundation and others in an attempt to stop elephant poaching. They made it illegal to deal in ivory and other elephant products. A nobel cause that did in fact put a huge dent in elephant poaching and by drying up the major markets. They did not however uinclude a contingency plan in regards to herd health and population control.This making it financially impossible for the parks to profit from the elephant and stopping the commercial hunting of elephants. This also made it immpossible for the parks to keep the elephant numbers at a healthy level.

I am not trying to JUSTIFY anything. If something is not done soon there is going to be a major die off in the elephants population. Commercial hunting is no longer a viable option. So tell me ARperson what is your solution?

 

[NRA4LIFE]

I did a simple internet search on KNP'selephant population and found a lot of good data. At the current rate of the population increase, there could be 20000 elephants there in 5 years, almost 3 times the holding capacity.

 

[SteveS]

Back to your original question about why anyone would be morally opposed to hunting elephants? There doesn't seem to be anyone here that is morally opposed. Personally, I can't say that I am interested in hunting elephants, but it is just a matter of personal preference. I certainly don't have a problems with anyone else doing it.

In terms of affording it, you are correct that it is about priorities. I am going on a caribou hunt next fall that I have been saving for during the past two years and it has required a fair amount of sacrifice. I can't say that it will get any easier. If I have some spare money I usually put it in my daughter's college fund.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Personally, I can't say that I am interested in hunting elephants, but it is just a matter of personal preference. I certainly don't have a problems with anyone else doing it.

Steve,


Yes that seems to be the case.

It's been interesting to me to read some of the posts which mirror many of my misconceptions about Africa and and African hunting before I started hunting there. I hope that I have (without insulting anyone hopefully) helped to clear some of these misconception up.

I have in the past however, been berated by members on this forum who've argued the imorality of african hunting and sport hunting in general. I'd really like to hear from them so as we can have a logical cool headed debate about this subject with the facts in full view.

I've always believed that most of our members are not conflicted when it comes to these activities. It's really interesting to me that some are however, and I'd like a clear picture as to why?

Does anybody believe that sport hunting is not the clear cut win win solution to this problem? And by this I'm not asking if you've got the money to do it. But in general.

 

[JGReed]

H&H Hunter,

I think you're posting the question in the wrong forum. I've noticed a lot of guys in the General Discussion, Legal & Political, etc who seem to be opposed to hunting in general but they probably don't browse here much.

For my part, I just don't have much of a jones to hunt anything I walk away from after killing...elephant, lion, or prarie dog. I love hunting deer, elk, and small game but that's partly because it's a great feeling to put them in the freezer later. Heck, I don't even shoot coyotes when I'm deer hunting. Why? I guess cuz I have no reason to. So I'm not "morally opposed" to anybody else doing it but I'm not likely to head down there anytime soon.

On a slightly different note, right now I'm reading "Lion Hunting in Somali-land" by C. J. Meliss. To be honest it makes me sad. In his day they didn't just hunt a lion...they hunted whole prides. This guy killed every single lion he came across. His "best day" was when he nailed all seven in a pride. Three juveniles, three females, and a male. I don't care how many lions there were back then, to me that's just lame.

 

[H&Hhunter]

This guy killed every single lion he came across. His "best day" was when he nailed all seven in a pride. Three juveniles, three females, and a male. I don't care how many lions there were back then, to me that's just lame.

JG

There are a whole bunch of people out there who don't understand the difference between hunting and culling. As they don't understand the difference between hunting and poaching or commercial shooting.

What you described is cull shooting or in that case they were probably trying to eliminate Lions from that region entirely. Just like we did to the buffalo.

I don't see how this compares to legal controlled sport hunting? But I do agree with you that it's tragedy the way some species were routed out and slaughtered. It is also going to be a major tragedy if something is not done about this elephant over population problem. And soon.

 

[SDC]

I fall into the same category as SteveS; I don't really see anything WRONG with hunting elephant, it's just that it doesn't really ATTRACT me. Now, cape buffalo, on the other hand... . I would dearly love to be able to hunt a few of those; they're tough, smart, and if you screw up, they'll make you pay for it.

 

[JGReed]

I understand culling very clearly, and I fully support sport hunting as an alternative. (even if I'm not inclined to do it). But I'm reading the book, and he wasn't culling and he wasn't on a concentrated effort to eliminate the population. He was on a self-financed safari and pulling the trigger on every lion he came across just because he could.

It's not related to your question about elephant hunting, which is why I wrote "On a slightly different note." It was just something I'd been thinking about since I'm reading the book at the moment.

I'll sum up my thoughts on elephant hunting in two sentences: "You wanna shoot 'em, that's your business. Not my cup o' joe."

 

[H&Hhunter]

SDC,

I agree with you on the Buff thing. I dearly love hunting buff. I'd rather hunt buff than just about anything. It's always exciting. I'd rather hunt buff than elephant anyday. But don't think that elephant hunting isn't dangerous for a second. It can be way more scary than buff hunting at times.

Just to clear this up I do not have a "jones" to hunt elephant in fact I don't really have a desire to hunt a trophy tusker. First off I couldn't afford to hunt a trophy elephant. I would however and have been involved in the taking of a cull elephant or an agressive farm raider or man killer. I wouldn't make a trip to specifically hunt elephants. I'd rather spend my money hunting buffalo anyday of the week.

I never turn down an opourtunity like going along on a trouble maker elephant hunt. It is an unbelievable experience. I'd also love to be involved in sorting out a man-eating lion. I won't turn that one down either if I ever have the chance.


JG

I agree with you and wasn't speaking of you in particular when writing the previous post. I was speaking in generalities.

Sounds like this Meliss character was yet another short sighted blood thirsty killer of early euro-african disdain. Of course in those days lions were considered vermin. So it's tough to place todays ethics on yesterdays actions.

 

[12-34hom]

If you were to go after big cat - what rifle - caliber - bullet combo who you use H&H??

From some of the accounts i've read the distances they can cover in a few seconds is unreal when they charge at full speed.

12-34hom.

 

[H&Hhunter]

12-34

I'd use my carbine, a scoped .375H&H would be the perfect cat gun if hunting off of a bait. I'd shoot 270gr X bullets or A-square lion loads in 300gr.

If I was tracking one in the thick stuff especially following up a wounded cat it would be my .470NE double loaded with 500gr woodleigh soft points. In semi open country I'd stick with my scoped .375. I'd have to have a look at the situation and the conditions of the day to be sure.


JG,
Please give me your definition of "sport" hunting. When I use the term sport hunting I am refering to anyone who hunts who doesn't have an immediate and life sustaining need to kill for food. People that hunt elk by choice and eat them because they want to not because they have to are sport hunters by definition.

People who kill animals because they have to to stay alive are substinance hunters.

I see no difference in me killing an animal and letting other people eat it as is the case with everything you kill in Africa verses me killing something and eatting it myself. In either case the animal is being utilized not wasted.

 

[kudu]

As I have been to S. Africa on a plains game hunt I would love the opporunity to take a big ole' elephant as well as several other species of plains game and dangerous game but I probably will never get the funds together again for another grand adventure. .....If I were to hit the lottery....

 

[HankB]

I'd shoot 270gr X bullets or A-square lion loads in 300gr.

Here I'd differ a bit from H&H . . . I've only take one (1) lion, and used a 300 grain Swift A-Frame from my .375 H&H. Classic mushroom, the bullet retained 86% of its weight - impact was on the left shoulder, crossing down to the right, and recovered under the skin above the lion's right "elbow." A lot of bone was hit, and I don't know if an A-Square "Lion Load" would have penetrated as deeply . . . I've seen their extremely rapid expansion - even on game as light as impala - and frankly, haven't been impressed.

And . . . is A-Square still in business? I heard they'd closed their doors, and remember reading that the owner had been suspended from Safari Club International for ethical lapses with a customer . . .

 

[H&Hhunter]

Hank,

As of a year ago they were in business. I talked to them and ordered some bullets for my .458Lott.

You know come to think of it I've heard some bad stuff about the Lion Loads form A-Square as well. Belay the A-Square load I'd use X-bullets or 300gr Rhino Solid shanks. They are a bullet I've just recently been introduced to and so far have been very impressed. They are built like a lead nosed fail safe. That's about as close a description as I can give.

Hank where did you get your lion?

Kudu.

keep the faith friend never say never.

 

[kentucky bucky]

During some of my deer hunts in Eastern Kentucky I might as well been looking for elephants.

 

[Guyon]

kentucky: what would you have done if you had seen one (elephant, I mean)?

 

[smokemaker]

Have to agree with the Cape Buffalo thing. Never had huge interest in hunting Elephant, but a mean ol' Dagga Boy, that's another thing. I even bought a used Mauser Mk X in .458 Win just for that someday. That and the guy sold it to me for a song.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Smokemaker,

Can you post a picture of your mauser. A MK X is a serious piece of cool. I see all kinds of bush battered old mausers in Africa. I love those old things.

Hey for all of you guys that want to go buffalo hunting. Are you aware that if you can put a group together you can really get the prices down. I've got an outfitter a real good one in Tanzania who set up for groups. He's got a graduated price scale for larger groups.

I'm dead serious if any of you guys want to put a THR trip together we could do it fairly cheap. I don't have the prices in front of me but I'm thinking for 6 people that would be 3, 2X1 groups for a 7 day buffalo hunt. I need to check but I think you'll find it is very reasonable.

 

[HankB]

H&Hhunter:

Hank where did you get your lion?

H&H, it was in Zambia, the Yakobi part of the Mwanya concession, in the Luangwa Valley. We put baits up all over, but the lion hit the one barely 700 yards away from camp.

Rhino solid shank bullets? I'm not familiar with those - are they from one of those small custom makers?

 

[H&Hhunter]

Hank


No they are a major South African bullet maker. They are not yet available in this country.

 

[kentucky bucky]

Hey GUYON

The obvious answer here is throw my bottle away, but I'm not a drinker , so I would probably check into the nearest sanitarium.