Why the aversion to hunting elephants?

[H&Hhunter]

I'm just curious why do many self proclaimed dyed in the wool hunters say they wouldn't hunt elephant?

Right now in South Africa Kruger National Park's eco system is carrying around 5,000 to many elephants they are soon going to eat themselves to death.

Zimbabwae needs to reduce it's herd by an esitmated 6,000 elephants and soon or they are going to have a major die off.

Botswana I've heard numbers as high as 10,000 over current carrying capacity.

Elephants multiply like rabbits and can quickly outstrip the local flora in todays limited range. Sport hunting is the only economic solution to this problem and it was the funds from legal sport hunting that have brought elephants back to the point where they need to either be culled at a great expense or need to be sport hunted at profit which would benifit all animals the environment in general, and provide incomes for countless thousands of people.

Sport hunting of the elephant is a win win situation. And for the elephants long term survival. Elephant hunting has never been cheaper If you are willing to take a non-trophy cull animal the license cost under $2,000 in some countries. A friend of mine just took a broken toothed old bull in the RSA for around $1,500US. And he reports that it was an incredible hunting experience. He also reported that he was quite emotional after the kill. As most first time elephant hunters tend to be and rightly so.

Either we come together in this country as hunters and promote the ethical sport hunting of elephant or the game departments will be forced to gun down thousands of these proud and worthy creatures from helicopters. Not to mention the thousands that will be killed by people trying to protect thier meager farms and in many cases protect themselves from elephants that will be forced to raid crops to survive.

 

[cordex]

Hunting African game doesn't personally appeal to me (whether reedbok or elephant or anything in between). However, I love to hear stories and see pictures & mounts that others - who have the time, money and desire to go - bring back.

If you want to pop an elephant, H&H, you've got my blessing. Unfortunately, that blessing only counts as law in Kyrgyzstan, and they don't pay much attention to laws anyhow.

 

[HSMITH]

I would love to hunt Africa, but I just can't afford it. Best wishes to those that can go.

 

[Kestrel]

I would love to hunt elephants. My only aversion is the expense. If it weren't for that, I would want to hunt one with large tusks and be able to have the head with tusks mounted and be allowed to bring it back to the US.

If I can't do that, I certainly am not going to pay to go shoot one (with no tusks) and have to leave it over there.

Steve

 

[St. Gunner]

H&H,

I'd do it in a minute, just don't have the finances to do so at present, hopefully in the next few years I can make a go of it. I was watching a video from Zimbabwe in 2001 a guy who runs another board went on, he shot an elephant and my almost 4yr old daughter who I thought would freak said, "I want to shoot one of those daddy, when can we go..." That about sums up the view from the Moody household, just save me at least one of the surplus elephants for when I get the money to go.

If I hit the lotto, I would be gone in less than a week along with a few of my closest friends... Course the guy I work with says before he goes to Africa he needs a Winchester model 88 built in some big game cartridge, he doesn't think .308 is gonna do. Anybody know of an 88 in .416 Rigby?

It has been my dream since I was old enough to hunt, elephant, buffalo, lion, leopard, eland, warthog, and a few other critters...

 

[redneck]

No complaints here on the ethics behind it or any of that.

Just out of curiosity, why is the license so high? Seems to me, that with expense of getting there when you have :
#1 a rifle capable of taking an elephant.
#2 A full set up for being in africa (clothes, supplies and stuff, you might have lots of hunting/camping gear but if you live in alaska you probably aren't quite equipped for africa)
#3 Travel expenses. Don't know what a normal round trip goes for on a regular airline, but I doubt its too cheap, especially shipping guns and all your gear.
#4 time to go, when your spending all this money, you have to work to make some more

That gets your total price pretty dang high! And all for one animal. If your going to hunt Africa I would imagine you would want to make the most of your time there and take a few other animals too, so you've got licenses for them as well.
Seems like if you have in the neighborhood of 20-25 thousand elephants too many, you would make the license cost fairly cheap in comparison to the total cost of the trip. It encourages people to come solve the problem and you know they are going to bring in revenue for more than just the license.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Redneck,

Depending on where you go the license fee can range from the hundreds to the thousands. What usually gets to be expensive on a trophy elephant are the daily fee's. Your paying for quite a bit of stuff there including staff game guards etc consevation fee's the list goes on and on. Elephant prices have always been high just due to the demand for good ivory in the sport hunting world.


On your first point you can get into a decent elephant rifle for under a grand no problem. You don't have to have a double gun...A good old standard out of the box iron sighted .458 would be just fine.

Point two all the supplies you need for africa are a good sun hat a tee shirt shorts or pants and good comfortable pair of walking shoes because on elephant you can expect to do some serious walking. Africa is the least equipment intensive hunting destination bar none.

Airline fee's are quite cheap and it doesn't cost any extra to ship your guns or gear they are just checked baggage. I can get round trip tickets to Jo-burg right now for around $800.00.

As far as time goes well that's a personal thing I guess it all depends on how you arrainge your life.

There is no denying that it is expensive to hunt Africa however it's more to hunt brown bear or sheep or for that matter elk in many places. And as far as my thinking goes they need to make some money from hunting revenues as that is the primary reason that any land is left for these animals to roam free in the first place.

The point of this thread is however given the facts why would any hunter be morally adverse to hunting elephant?

I can understand being financially adverse to elephant hunting. If it wasn't for the contacts and friends that I have in Africa I wouldn't be able to do much of the hunting that I do over there.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Course the guy I work with says before he goes to Africa he needs a Winchester model 88 built in some big game cartridge, he doesn't think .308 is gonna do. Anybody know of an 88 in .416 Rigby?

St Gunner.

No but I do know a guy in Arlington who builds a 1886 win in a supped up 45-120 that equals the ballistics of a .458 lott. 500gr bullet at around 2300fps. Or you can have him build you a marlin 1895 in .500 Alaskan firing a .50 cal 500gr bullet at around 2000fps.

That'd do the trick.

I'm telling you guys who want to do this African thing, the next couple of years are a window of opportunity that's not going to last if you can put it together it's a great time.

 

[sm]

H&H, I'm going to show my ignorance here-ok?

Granted monies and time hinder many from hunting in Africa, or similar big game hunts.

I thought the restrictions on Ivory was the reason the elephant was not being hunted. Strict and severe penalties because of poaching years ago--"I thought"--was the demise of elephant hunting. Gov't officals did the culling only.

What is the straight scoop because in honest, I didn't keep with it as I probably should have. I figured it was a hunting era gone by.

MY involvment with ivory was such that a big deal was made over "legal and reputable sources". Certain countries and the old elepahant put down due to culling, or just old age caught up finally.

Thanks,
Steve

 

[Kestrel]

That's my big aversion, too. If I could afford it, I don't think I would, simply because I would not be able to bring the mounted head/ivory back to the US.

If I go to the expense and trouble to fly to Africa, risk my life to shoot one of those huge beasts, I better get to bring home the trophy!

Steve

 

[Ol' Badger]

I'd like to bring it to my Processor and say skin that!

 

[redneck]

Thanks H&H
I hadn't realized that the license fee included paying the folks who have to go with you on the hunt. Thats a little more reasonable.
I wholeheartedly agree that they need to make money off the hunts so that they can continue the conservation efforts. I was just thinking more along the lines that they would do themselves a favor to go for slightly lower profit per elephant because they would sell a lot more permits. I didn't think that they had quite as much cost/overhead on each hunt.

I don't really agree with all the rules on Ivory either now that these guys have brought them up. Thats mainly an issue with the U.S. though not allowing it to be imported. I make knives and while I don't use ivory myself I've seen some of the trouble guys go through to get it, has to be pre-ban and licensed and all kinds of stuff. Much easier to get mamoth ivory and fossil type stuff :banghead:
I can see where that would discourage alot of people from hunting elephant, although I bet the experience is worth it in itself trophy or not.

 

[HankB]

Why the aversion to hunting elephants?

1. In a word - Dumbo. Too many people "learn" about wildlife from Disney cartoons. (and worse, PETA-inspired shows on cable stations like "Animal Planet.") They think elephants are in danger of extinction, and don't understand that while the elephant populations in places like Kenya were devastated by poaching (the poachers made sure that those at the highest levels of government profited) other populations were actually TOO LARGE. As a species, elephants are VERY healthy. But that's not what people see on TV!

2. Cost. If you jump through the hoops, you CAN bring elephant trophies - including the tusks - back from certain African countries. But if you want a good hunt in a good area, you'll probably have to spend well upwards of $1000 per day as your daily rate, often for a minimum of 21 days . . . and that's before trophy fees and possibly (depending on which country) air charter fees, license fees, concession fees, and so forth. For most people who hunt Africa today, spending that kind of $$$ for only a remote possibility of a big trophy is just not in the cards. Sure, the well-heeled can talk about "the hunting experience" being worth it, and I understand that - I mean, I can go on a grouse hunt and come back empty handed, and STILL say I had a good time. But the cost of a grouse hunt doesn't run WELL into five figures.

3. Trophy quality. Let's face it, your chances of getting a "100 pounder" today are somewhere between slim and none - today, even a 70 or 80 pounder is exceptional. The "cheaper" hunts that sometimes become available will yield either an elephant with less than 50 pounds of ivory on a side, or even (on a PAC or Problem Animal Control hunt) a tuskless or immature elephant. No trophy value there, but still thousands in trophy fees and other costs. (Back to $$$ again.)

I've hunted Africa several times - never for elephant - and that's my take on it. If I win a big lotto jackpot (kinda hard, since I don't buy tickets) I may change my viewpoint.

 

[H&Hhunter]

Steve, SM,

Both of you guys harbor a common misconception. There is no problem importing Legally taken ivory from any country with leagalized sport hunting.

It requires a CITES permitt. I can arrainge one for you over the phone.

Hank, I agree with all you've said and would just add that I've had several buddies go and sort out a PAC cow or bull and thay all say the same thing. That it was the most intensly dangerous hunting they've ever done.

That blows my skirt up in a big way but then again I'm a bit of an adrenalin junkie.

 

[Detachment Charlie]

O.K., H&H, I'll step up to the plate to take one for the team.

I have no ethical problems with taking an elephant. I'd love to hunt Africa.
My question is, how difficult is it?
Once you get beyond the mundane stuff like money, rifle, and time, just how difficult is it to shoot an elepant?
I ask this after seeing some "hunts" when I was in the corporate world. These involved taking a client out to some ranch and having them shoot some animal -- elk, bear, boar or exotic. This just wasn't hunting. This was just killing. Shooting dairy cows would have been more of a challenge than these corporate weenies had on the set-up "hunts."
-Sorry for the the rant -- a little off topic, but I had to get it out.
Just how challenging is an elephant hunt?
I can see a real challenge of stalking on foot, some in-rut, bad attitude bull elephant that could turn you into so much between-his-toes jelly if the wind shifts and you miss the shot. But, if all it entails is the cash to hire a Land Rover with a Ransom rest for your 50-yd. pot shot, no thanks.
Now, where did I leave my asbestos skivvies???

 

[BigG]

I balked when I read the license (some years ago) cost $25,000

 

[H&Hhunter]

Well Detatchment,

That all depends. To hunt a trophy elephant usually entails cutting a track early in the morning then following the track into the thick stuff usually between 5 and 20 miles later on foot.

Once you find where the elephants have holed up for the day in the thickest nastiest thorn imaginable to man or beast you cut wind on them and try to sneak up on the ole boy while he's taking a his midday sieasta. Thne only problem is that he'll have several guards with him commonly called askaris. These are younger elephants who's job are to kill anything of a threat that gets to close to the old man.

After crawling through the thorn you will usually hear the bull before you see him. He'll be eminating a low growling rumbling sound from his gut. You will usually be able to see him at about 20 yards or closer then you have to sneak around and find his head. Untill you've actually seen it you can't believe how an animal this size is so darn invisible in the brush.

After you find his head you try and line up for a side brain shot or if that's not working you can take a heart shot. At the shot one of two things usually happen.
A. Tembo Sana takes one through the brain and collapses to the ground then the askaris start trumpeting and searching around for some little pink thing to smash into ground round. This part of the hunt involves alot of running away cussing and underware clinching

B. The elephant is not hit well and requires a long and usally fruitless follow up. Or he's heart shot and runs for awhile before dropping taking his askaris with him. Or he may charge from close quarters.

A tuskless cow or a control animal tends be an animal that is very aggersive and usually herds up with other aggresive animals. In most cases that I have personal knowledge of either the animal your hunting or it's buddies will charge with deadly intent. It also involves alot of running cussing and unerware clinching. Many of my PH friends tell me there is absolutley no quicker way to get killed in the hunting world than by a bad news elephant. The most dangerous situation in hunting bar none.

In anycase either form of hunting include long forced marches in under the African sun. And then are punctuated by several minutes of life threating moments after the shot. Hardly a corporate get away vacation for yuppie scum.

Then again sometimes you just get lucky and shoot ole temdo off the road over the bonet of the rover. But this usually never happens in a true hunting concesion. That would be more likely to happen while culling (read slaughtering) elephants in a park. But I don't consider that to be hunting just like you don't.

I hope that sheds some light on the picture with out sounding like to large of a richard cranium.

In general I've seen both types of hunting in Africa if you want to you can find a place to drive around and shoot critters from a truck. Or in most cases you'll actually have to put in some miles and hunt hard for your heads. It's entirely up to you.

 

[Sunray]

Redneck, it isn't the licences, travel expenses, etc. It's the trophy, taxidermy and shipping fees. The Accurate forums are really good on this subject. Actual people who live and hunt in Africa and guide there etc. From what little research I've done, and none recently, you're looking at $50,000 USD and up for an African hunt by the time the dust clears.
http://www.nookhill.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi
NA hunters are adverse to shooting elephants because we've been brain washed by our governments and the anti-hunters into thinking there are very few elephants left. The importation of ivory is illegal as well. Not sure about legally hunted ivory though. In Canada anyway and I think into the US. No self shot ivory for pistol grips why bother?
I'd kind of like to see SteveW13 rumpus room when he gets a elephant head mount installed. Will there be room for the beer fridge Steve? Just curious. I can see one in my living room. In my one bed room apt. HAHAHAHA! I'd rather have a big cape buffalo head though.

 

[Detachment Charlie]

H&H,
Thanks for the info from someone who's been there, done that.
For me, the true thrill of a great hunt is never really knowing the outcome. Never hunted elephant, but handgunning for big, nasty boar piggies in the thicket is about as good as it gets for me. If I don't nail him with the first shot, he's gonna make me sing soprano with his tusks. Some times you just have to get the old heart-rate up a tad to make things really interesting. I think a few tons of really PO'd elephant could raise mine a few points.
As for the Yuppie Scum...what's the daily bag limit on them in Africa?

 

[Kestrel]

Sunray - I'm sure my wife would let me sell all the furniture in the room, just to hang my elephant head...


Det. Charlie - to minimize the chances of injury, do they offer elephant hunts where they chain a drugged elephant securely to a tree and let you shoot at him? Might make the hunt a little more safe... Of course, for the pictures afterwards, they could bring in a crane to position the elephant in a menacing position, to make it look like you were in a thin scrape.

I'd love to hunt them - just can't afford it.

Steve

 

[sm]

H&H

Thanks for clearing up some misconceptions. I didn't really harbor any, I just did not get the straight answers I wanted. In another life I was around ivory, no biggie, I appreciated the whole deal from hunt, to cratsmanship, to finished product. Then the tree hugging, PC, and such hit.

I had just accepted elephants, ivory as part of the "natural order of things". Maybe all this "new order " has really caused a lot more damage than most realize. I tend to think so.

I was about to leave said business and everyone I ran across did not give straight answers...meaning they continued the "big deal" to qualify all the "extra effort" so could charge more.

I could have checked into further but I was getting out and focused attentions elsewhere.

I did visit a home once with tusks mounted and tusks made stools ...I could not believe the size of those things. I mean Ruark and others, always wanted to go...dang them suckers big. Fella said you ought to be facing that when it is a living breathing critter. Nice scar he had too, bleeding everywhere and never knew it, kinda got a "bit hairy" , never felt the recoil, never felt the shot, and when hauling butt ( from askarias) never felt that thorn that sliced him good.

My heart rate went up just taking this all in.

Sir I really do appreciate you taking the time to shed light, share experiences, answer questions, and share pics.

 

[Correia]

I would absolutely love to, but like many here an African hunt would cost more than I make in a year. Most of us are just working stiffs with kids and mortgages. I think the vast majority of the folks you meet on THR have no ethical problems with elephant hunting, we just see them as really enormous deer.

 

[NRA4LIFE]

H&H,

Wow. I have to admit, I thought the numbers you mentioned seemed unbelievable but I found articles supporting them. KNP has over 12000 elephants with a holding capacity of 7000-7500. An article claimed also that the population is steadily growing by 7-10% per YEAR. That is incredible.

One big problem I think with any aversion to hunting them is that the only things you ever see on TV or the news, etc., is the liberal slant on the whole issue. You will rarely see anything that shows the obvious population problems, but you will always see how there is so much poaching, how the numbers are dwindling in a certain area, etc, etc, etc. It leads one to believe that there are barely any elephants left on the planet.

For me, I really don't have much interest in hunting them. I could afford it, I guess, but there are so many things I would like to hunt on this continent before I go elephant hunting. I have no problem with people hunting elephants, especially when their so overpopulated.

What happens to all the elephant meat after you kill one? I seem to have read something way back when that it is shared amongst the local populace.

 

[Guyon]

I would hope NRA4LIFE is right about the meat. Like any other animal (excepting some species that really do need protection), I don't have a problem with it being hunted if the animal is put to some use. Use enough gun, make a clean, ethical kill, and you'll get no objections from my quarters.

Africa though? Not on my budget. My wife complains enough about what I spend on deer and turkey hunting.

I cancelled my subscription to Sports Afield recently because they changed their format to cater to "exotic" hunts in places I'm not going to visit anytime soon. And really, I don't need (or want) an elephant bearing down on me to get an adrenaline rush. All is takes is a spring gobbler answering my yelps to get my heart going. I'm pretty simple, I guess.

Still, H&H is right about the need to correct the uninformed victims of our Disney culture when it comes to the realities of game management. The same issues go on here in suburbs overrun by deer--just on a smaller scale.

 

[12-34hom]

Shooting a tusker does not interest me.

I've always wanted to hunt a Cape Buffalo.

12-34hom.