Angel Armor!

[Axis II]

Just looking for thoughts on this one.

A local shop opened up in town and donated a layered rifle/pistol plate called angel armor to the academy for testing. We started out at 50ft with 9mm 115gr FMJ ammo fired from service pistols and hit this plate about 8 times. The plate actually buckled inwards with each hit and cracked and splintered. One FMJ round actually mushroomed inside the plate and came a hair of punching right through it. Some say the plate being duct taped to a steel man target was the issue and it didn't have anything soft like a body to absorbed the shock but I call BS. If standard FMJ ammo from a 9mm did this much damage what's a larger caliber round or rifle doing to it?

 

[Glockula]

If it is poorly made 3a body armor then a rifle round probably won't notice the angel armor is there as it goes through.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

If standard FMJ ammo from a 9mm did this much damage what's a larger caliber round or rifle doing to it?

Probably sail right through. Low end armor has a really poor track record with rifle shots though, so it's not really surprising.

 

[lemaymiami]

Take a close look at the manufacturer's specs for that plate... Most of the metal plates I'm familiar with - that are designed to be added to a thin pocket on a IIIa vest are designated as "shock plates" and not meant to stop anything more than pistol rounds- and are only intended to distribute the shock from pistol rounds before it's transmitted through the soft body armor to the wearer... The idea is that they were supposed to greatly lessen the felt trauma to the user... Without a shock plate the wearer gets the full impact of any incoming round - even though it doesn't penetrate at all. The result is that the wearer is much less able to respond after the impact than he or she would be if the plate was in place. I know a bit about the topic since I wore a vest almost 98% of my time on the street (nearly 22 years...). None of the body armor I'm familiar with was ever designed to stop rifle rounds (neither were the thin metal shock plates...).

Military grade body armor is dramatically different -both in the protection provided and the materials used (ceramic plates...). I've never worn any of that but I've been told it's much bulkier and not something you'd wear under a uniform... By the way - I'm also a Vietnam vet (101Abn - 1971) and the body armor back then was very primitive compared to what I wore on the street years later. It only protected you from shrapnel, was very hot and bulky (uncomfortable) - many that I knew called it "chicken plate" and sat on it in vehicles or choppers since incoming stuff was very likely to hit you where you sat....

 

[Axis II]

Take a close look at the manufacturer's specs for that plate... Most of the metal plates I'm familiar with - that are designed to be added to a thin pocket on a IIIa vest are designated as "shock plates" and not meant to stop anything more than pistol rounds- and are only intended to distribute the shock from pistol rounds before it's transmitted through the soft body armor to the wearer... The idea is that they were supposed to greatly lessen the felt trauma to the user... Without a shock plate the wearer gets the full impact of any incoming round - even though it doesn't penetrate at all. The result is that the wearer is much less able to respond after the impact than he or she would be if the plate was in place. I know a bit about the topic since I wore a vest almost 98% of my time on the street (nearly 22 years...). None of the body armor I'm familiar with was ever designed to stop rifle rounds (neither were the thin metal shock plates...).

Military grade body armor is dramatically different -both in the protection provided and the materials used (ceramic plates...). I've never worn any of that but I've been told it's much bulkier and not something you'd wear under a uniform... By the way - I'm also a Vietnam vet (101Abn - 1971) and the body armor back then was very primitive compared to what I wore on the street years later. It only protected you from shrapnel, was very hot and bulky (uncomfortable) - many that I knew called it "chicken plate" and sat on it in vehicles or choppers since incoming stuff was very likely to hit you where you sat....

I have a level 3a safariland with trauma plates that go in the middle and they are flexible and soft. These angels plates are hard fiberglass type material about 12-16” for Molle vests. The guy who donated them from his uniform shop swore they were rifle rated. If I hit that same area the bullet almost poked through with another pistol round it would be done for. Picture the large military rifle plates but fiberglass.

Btw thank you for your service my father was 101abn Vietnam two tours.

 

[Axis II]

https://angelarmor.com/products/truth-snap/

This is the plates we hit with pistols.

 

[Milt1]

I think angel is the correct name for the armor because it sounds like if you're wearing it and get hit by a bullet, chances are that you'll be an angel.

 

[lemaymiami]

thanks for the additional info - clearly the shock plates I'm familiar with aren't the same.... and if those "angel plates" don't hold up they're dead in the water... Most outfits that do purchase armor for their officers will make a point of ordering one or two for testing before making a bulk purchase (at least that's how we operated - all those years ago...).

 

[Axis II]

thanks for the additional info - clearly the shock plates I'm familiar with aren't the same.... and if those "angel plates" don't hold up they're dead in the water... Most outfits that do purchase armor for their officers will make a point of ordering one or two for testing before making a bulk purchase (at least that's how we operated - all those years ago...).

The shop owner that donated it is becoming a dealer so wanted us to test it. I couldn't believe the golf ball craters on the other side where the rounds indented them inwards toward the body. He bragged how it was so lite, would stop a 7.62, etc. After being able to crack the plate where several rounds hit it i said no way! One guy placed an order for a full set but backed out after seeing how it performed.

 

[hdwhit]

ohihunter2014 asked:
"The plate actually buckled inwards with each hit and cracked and splintered. One FMJ round actually mushroomed inside the plate and came a hair of punching right through it. Some say the plate being duct taped to a steel man target was the issue and it didn't have anything soft like a body to absorbed the shock but I call BS. If standard FMJ ammo from a 9mm did this much damage what's a larger caliber round or rifle doing to it?"

Hard to say.

I would call this entire "experiment" inconclusive, and move on.

Establish a particular target - regardless of what is is made of - to be the "standard target" and then compare/publish all results relative to that "standard".

 

[cheygriz]

A little bit OT, but unless you're military/LE, if you feel the need to wear armor, you should get into a different line of work or relocate to a different area.

 

[Englishmn]

It could be said if you feel the need to be armed the same applies.

Just do what makes you comfortable within the law.

As far as the armor goes which plate did you have? The 308 rating is for two different plates stacked.
And i suspect a solid backer would increase the damage to armor as a lot of energy is bled off with a flexable backer. Requirement for 3a rating is 5 fair hits no penetration.

 

[Axis II]

A little bit OT, but unless you're military/LE, if you feel the need to wear armor, you should get into a different line of work or relocate to a different area.

Never know what one will encounter going to the corner store for milk at 9pm.

Just joking-we tested this during our police academy firearms training.

 

[Axis II]

It could be said if you feel the need to be armed the same applies.

Just do what makes you comfortable within the law.

As far as the armor goes which plate did you have? The 308 rating is for two different plates stacked.
And i suspect a solid backer would increase the damage to armor as a lot of energy is bled off with a flexable backer. Requirement for 3a rating is 5 fair hits no penetration.

You know I’m not entirely sure. One guy in the academy shops at this supply store and he gave him the plate for testing so he could show it off in his shop. We duct taped it to a metal man target.

 

[Englishmn]

It does appear even taped to a steel target it survived its single plate rating as it took 3 more rounds than it was rated for without penetration.

While hard ar500 armor would take all the 9mm rounds you could afford without even denting, after the impact face coating breaks down the bullet fragments would cut you apart.

 

[Axis II]

It does appear even taped to a steel target it survived its single plate rating as it took 3 more rounds than it was rated for without penetration.

While hard ar500 armor would take all the 9mm rounds you could afford without even denting, after the impact face coating breaks down the bullet fragments would cut you apart.

While I agree it didn't penetrate what i was more concerned about was it cracking like glass. I'm not an armor expert but i would imagine if a 9mm fmj at normal speeds cracked the plate the rifle rounds would possibly do much worse even if there were 2 plates on top of each other. I should ask the guy to bring the shot up one back and let me hit it with a few +p+ rounds from a 9mm or 40cal or maybe even 357mag and see how it does.

 

[Englishmn]

The armor fracturing is by design and helps dissipate the bullet energy. This type of armor uses the bullet expanding to help stop it.
A non expanding solid bullet will possibly penetrate it like the lehigh 9mm 115 xtreme penetrator.
Here is the table i found on ratings.

I have only played with some pistol rated wall armor
It stopped .357 mag easily .22lr penetrated deeper than the 357. .223 went through like nothing was there. It also cracked a lot when hit.

 

[hdwhit]

ohihunter2014 wrote:
Never know what one will encounter going to the corner store for milk at 9pm.

Yeah, if experience is any teacher, I have a pretty good idea what to expect going to the corner store (which happens to be a Wal-Mart) at 9 p.m. And that is, "Absolutely nothing" other than an understaffed checkout line that will take me longer to check-out than it did for me to shop for my groceries.

I don't need to carry in my house.

I don't need to carry each time I leave my house.

So, I generally don't carry. Still, I've walked through New York's Hell's Kitchen at 1:00 a.m. and I'm still alive and unscathed.

 

[buck460XVR]

While I agree it didn't penetrate what i was more concerned about was it cracking like glass.

The armor fracturing is by design and helps dissipate the bullet energy.

^^^Was my suspicions. One also has to consider that the plate is going to absorb impact differently when strapped to a rigid steel target as opposed to real flesh and bone that will also absorb some of the impact. A better test would be to strap it to ballistic gel or even a large ham.

As for folks(other than Mall Ninjas) thinking they need body armor to go to the neighborhood store, God help us if it ever gets to that point. Still, most criminals that are robbing the 7-11 at 9 p.m. ain't good enough shots to hit you in the chest anyway.

 

[cheygriz]

Yeah, if experience is any teacher, I have a pretty good idea what to expect going to the corner store (which happens to be a Wal-Mart) at 9 p.m. And that is, "Absolutely nothing" other than an understaffed checkout line that will take me longer to check-out than it did for me to shop for my groceries.

I don't need to carry in my house.

I don't need to carry each time I leave my house.

So, I generally don't carry. Still, I've walked through New York's Hell's Kitchen at 1:00 a.m. and I'm still alive and unscathed.

Sometimes there is a very fine line between reasonable caution and outright paranoia. In my value system, being constantly armed in your own locked home, and wearing armor to the grocery store cross that line.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

Sometimes there is a very fine line between reasonable caution and outright paranoia. In my value system, being constantly armed in your own locked home, and wearing armor to the grocery store cross that line.

Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean that they aren't really after you.......

This appears to be a type of "ablative" armor, where the radial cracking directs energy away from the impact point as it absorbs it, somewhat similar to the ceramic/composite sandwich on modern tank armor. When hit by solid projectiles these armor packages look terrible afterwards, but still prevent penetration. They generally lose their protection in that same spot against a second strike, though.

 

[Axis II]

^^^Was my suspicions. One also has to consider that the plate is going to absorb impact differently when strapped to a rigid steel target as opposed to real flesh and bone that will also absorb some of the impact. A better test would be to strap it to ballistic gel or even a large ham.

As for folks(other than Mall Ninjas) thinking they need body armor to go to the neighborhood store, God help us if it ever gets to that point. Still, most criminals that are robbing the 7-11 at 9 p.m. ain't good enough shots to hit you in the chest anyway.

My comment about needing armor to go to the 7/11 was a joke. I know guys who strap on a gun to go buy a gallon of milk and I tend to do that also because the local dollar store has been robbed like 10 times in 2yrs and several were with a weapon.

 

[Axis II]

Yeah, if experience is any teacher, I have a pretty good idea what to expect going to the corner store (which happens to be a Wal-Mart) at 9 p.m. And that is, "Absolutely nothing" other than an understaffed checkout line that will take me longer to check-out than it did for me to shop for my groceries.

I don't need to carry in my house.

I don't need to carry each time I leave my house.

So, I generally don't carry. Still, I've walked through New York's Hell's Kitchen at 1:00 a.m. and I'm still alive and unscathed.

You guys do know that was a joke right? I was being a smart a.. in replying to cheygriz's comment.

I've had a ccw about 9yrs now and got specifically due to my past line of work. (metro housing authority) I quit doing that and let the ccw expire about 2yrs. I now only ccw when hunting cause of coyotes and crackheads and if I'm going to sketchy areas. I don't see the need for non LEO and military to own any type of armor, wear it, etc.