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Another court case reinforcing police immunity on duty to protect the public....

Discussion in 'Legal' started by emc, Aug 13, 2004.

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  1. emc

    emc Member

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    Once again, the courts have ruled that YOU are going to have to be the one primarily responsible for your own safety. All of us know this, but too many citizens do not.

    To paraphrase things -

    "Be careful out there, and carry MAJOR heat, WITH reloads!"

    Or......

    "We need guns. LOTS of guns." And the willingness to use them when the chips are down.

    *********************************************************

    INDIANAPOLIS - (AP)

    The St. Joseph County Police Department cannot be held liable for releasing a man who later killed three people during a burglary, the Indiana Court of Appeals ruled.

    The agency is protected under government immunity laws, the court ruled Tuesday.

    In its ruling Tuesday, the appeals court said that law enforcement agencies cannot be sued for not enforcing the law - in this case, the jail bond.
     
  2. Sindawe

    Sindawe Member

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    Geee...

    Then just what the frell are we paying for with the police? Exciting dash cam footage? Hollyweird does it better.
     
  3. Steve in PA

    Steve in PA Member

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    Too much info left out.
     
  4. El Tejon

    El Tejon Member

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    Should be able to find the opinion on the ICoA website thingy.
     
  5. CannibalCrowley

    CannibalCrowley Member

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    Here's more on the story: Court: Police not liable in Stroud release

    Basically, this guy was in jail and posted $3,000 in bond and was let out. Unfortunately the amount set was $8,000 but he was let out anyway. This all happened back in 2000, and it's being blamed on an "improper computer entry". Someone should have at least lost his job over this, a criminal negligence charge would be nice too.
     
  6. emc

    emc Member

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    As an FYI for Steve, the article that I posted above was copied verbatim from my local newspaper. Thanks to Crowley for obtaining a lengthier account!

    FWIW,

    emc
     
  7. FedDC

    FedDC member

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    The Police do not determine who is released from jail or how much their bond is set at. That would be the court system. The bail bond system and the bounty hunting industry in the US are a scourge on our justice system. They actively seek to have violent criminals released for money so that they can charge huge interest rates to people that may very well go out and kill someone. They do all of that for money and I for one would call it blood money.

    Plus, take a look at the restrictions for bounty hunters. There are very very few. They do NOT abide by the same restrictions that LEOs have to go by and they can invade your home virtually at will. They can and do use deadly force and are not held to the same standard as the rest of us. I am suprised that there is not more complaining about the bountyhunting industry on this forum, since they actually do many of the things that everyone on here complains about the police doing...
     
  8. alan

    alan Member

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    FEDDC offered:

    "Plus, take a look at the restrictions for bounty hunters. There are very very few. They do NOT abide by the same restrictions that LEOs have to go by and they can invade your home virtually at will. They can and do use deadly force and are not held to the same standard as the rest of us. I am suprised that there is not more complaining about the bountyhunting industry on this forum, since they actually do many of the things that everyone on here complains about the police doing..."

    There have been some complaints and mention made of/about the problems of some of the "bounty hunters" you mentioned. 60 Minutes ran a lengthy segment and repeated same. Probably not nearly enough complaint though.

    As to mention of governmental immunity: "The agency is protected under government immunity laws, the court ruled Tuesday."

    One wonders as to exactly "immunity" is spelled, and the following also comes to mind. How might I obtain a giant sized helping thereof?
     
  9. FedDC

    FedDC member

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    Yeah, I mispelled it..Oh darn;)
     
  10. CannibalCrowley

    CannibalCrowley Member

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    FedDC
    What does that have to do with this case? The court set a bond of $8,000 and the police let him out after paying $3,000. In this case the police let him out without him paying the full bond.

    "The Police do not determine who is released from jail" :rolleyes:
     
  11. manwithoutahome

    manwithoutahome member

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    How would the folks think about this IF he had posted the entire bail and did the same thing?

    People do make mistakes and someone should lose a job over this and maybe sued in civil court. But, if we all got sued for typos then this board as well as others would be broke and quick.

    Hence, the real solition is to not depend on the police, do not depend on the courts, depend on yourself. And if illegal to carry in your state, either do it anyway or vote out the blissnannies. Better yet is to get together and do class action suits against the state for not allowing you your rights.

    I think that people in positions where a mistake could be life or death should be held to a higher standard.

    Wayne

    *oh, and not agreeing with anyone, just MHO.
     
  12. Deavis

    Deavis Member

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    Holy crap, I agree. I'm marking this day on my calendar. A higher standard for violent criminals to be released... it just might work!

    fail English? That's unpossible! :D
     
  13. FedDC

    FedDC member

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    Again, the Police do not determine who is released from jail. The court sets bail and then the court clerk enters the bail ammount into the system. When the defendant goes to pay his bail, it is not paid to the PD, but to the court clerk. If you want to get angry over a typo, be angry at the clerk, not the Police. Although, I would say that it is more appropriate to be angry at the criminal himself.

    With the current bail bond system in America, even if the defendant had a 100K bond, he would have only had to come up with a few thousand dollars and the bond company would gladly provide the rest.
     
  14. CannibalCrowley

    CannibalCrowley Member

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    manwithoutahome
    I don't know about you, but I've never made a typo on this board which resulted in a suspect being released from jail.

    FedDC
    Incorrect. I've had to pay bail before and I gave it to a state trooper.
    We don't know for sure who made the typo because the County Police won't release the name.
    That would apply only if the criminal was free at first, but he wasn't. Of course we should be angry at the criminal, but the person who accidentally let him out should share some of the blame.
     
  15. TallPine

    TallPine Member

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    Actually, I would like to hear more about that...

    Maybe you could start a thread(s) with some accounts of that?

    thanks:)


    (btw, i don't think they'd want to bust into my house :uhoh: )
     
  16. FedDC

    FedDC member

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    I could go on just about forever about bounty hunters engaging in behavior that I would consider criminal (warrantless entry, vehicle chases, etc.) but if you want a real look at it, check out this topic from GT: http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=269680&highlight=bounty+hunter


    As to paying bail to a trooper, maybe it is done differently in some small towns, but everywhere I have ever worked your bail was set by the judege and then the admin work including payment went to the clerk...but then again, I never worked in a small town.
     
  17. TallPine

    TallPine Member

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    Ok, thanks Fed - I'm checking it out ...
     
  18. TallPine

    TallPine Member

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    From that bounty hunter thread on glocktalk

    Hmmmmm ............ ;)
     
  19. manwithoutahome

    manwithoutahome member

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    I also believe that if you blow away a bounty hunter that breaks into your house by mistake is called self defense.

    Me personally, I think that "whomever" made the mistake should pay for it. Maybe even brought up on neglict charges.

    But I would still like to hear what everyone would have done if this hadn't been a typo and he had paid the entire $8000 bail to get out.

    Also, been thinking about something. Was the $8000 the entire bail amount? I do believe that you only have to pay a portion of the total bail to a bail bondsmen and then you get out.

    The more I think about it, the more questions that I'm now having.

    Wayne
     
  20. SUE ROVR

    SUE ROVR Member

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    The other problem with this case is causation.

    If he paid 3k he WOULD have paid 8k. The mistake did not cause him to be released.

    Sure they rule on soverign immunity, but he would have lost on causation too. They would have had to prove he only had access to less than 8k, otherwise no dice.
     
  21. alan

    alan Member

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    manwithoutahome:

    I believe that one posts 10% cash to "go bond" for another.

    If the person held were "going bond" for themselves, I believe the same would apply.
     
  22. jnojr

    jnojr Member

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    If my door is ever kicked down by "recovery agents" or "bail enforcement", there's gonna be blood and brass on the floor. Period.

    As for the $3000 / $8000 typo... I don't see real liability there. What if the con had had the $8000, got out, and killed three people? What if he'd just plain escaped? What if he'd never been arrested in the first place, and was being sought by police when he killed three people? The typo is certainly an indication that (at the time) there was a process issue that needed to be looked at. But the con is who's responsible for three murders, not the police.

    But, this absolutely is also yet another indication that I am ultimately responsible for my own safety.
     
  23. Bruce H

    Bruce H Member

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    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    In my time as a recovery agent I have never had to force entry into a residence to make a capture. With a well thought out plan there is always a way to capture a bail skip wothout having to destroy property or resort to violence.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Wouldn't this also work for law enforcement? Why have no knock warrants? I always liked the saying,"Proper previous planning prevents pi**poor performance".
     
  24. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

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    If we don't have it, government shouldn't have it—period.
     
  25. wprebeck

    wprebeck Member

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    I love the fact that there are people on here who seem to know everything about each individual aspect of each individual district in the country...:rolleyes:


    For example, here in Louisville (Jefferson County), KY, there is NO such thing as a "bail bondsman". For that matter, there is no such animal in the entire state. Let me walk you through the arrest/booking/release steps that we go through here in Louisville. Oh, and I'd like to the court of THR to accept me as an expert witness in this field. My qualifications are 4.5 years of working in the local jail, and almost two years of that time has been spent dealing with booking people in, and releasing them. So, do I qualify as an expert witness (or am I just another JBT?)


    So, you're driving along, and get pooped for a DUI. Skipping all the stuff about a PBT, FST's, and the BA, and let's get to the point where I take you. I look over the arresting ofifcer's citation, ensure it's filled out correctly, and then ask you some questions:
    "Do you have any drugs/weapons/contraband in your possession?"
    "Are you sick/injured in any way?"
    "Have you ever been arrested in Jefferson County?"

    After these are answered, you're brought in to the security area of the jail. You're then searched, and we do a two-finger (right index and middle) scan, plus ink your right four fingers onto your citation.

    Now, you'll wait a bit, until the CIVILIANS (yep, non-sworn people actually enter you into the system) book you in. Then, pre-trial services will interview you. They're a state agency tasked with presenting your case to a judge later on. After this, you'll be interviewed by the medical staff, photographed, fingerprinted (LIVESCAN machine), and then interviewed by classification staff. After all this is complete, you'll be "booked" into the jail completely.

    Now, assuming pre-trial was successful in getting the judge to set a bond for you (based on your criminal history, job history, verification of address/employment/etc), then you'll want someone to pay it. Well, that someone has to go (follow me closely, as this is tricky) to DISTRICT COURT, which is open 24/7/365, and pay the bond. The person paying this will be given an envelope, and instructed to take it to jail records. The records staff are ALSO civilians (nope, no sworn here either). They will run the release, and a copy of it will be sent to the booking floor.

    This copy will have a photo of you, and will also contain other personal info that we'll use to ID you, such as your SSN, address, etc. This is to help ensure that you're the person you say you are.

    Before you can go, though, a warrant check is completed by the good peole in the ID lab (they're a mix of civilians and officers for now. No more officers will be assigned to the lab; it was a union issue a few years back).

    After the warrant check is completed, the release officer will come and get you. Remember the two-finger scan I mentioned earlier? Well, you get to do it again. This time, it will compare your current scan to the original one, and your pretty little mugshot will pop up on the screen, along with your name, stating the print was verified. You sign the release, and we send you into another room to get your property, and you leave.


    That's the process. If you didn't notice, WE (we're not technically the police, either) don't have anything to do with WHO gets out of jail. If a release is sent over by records, we can only assume that it was properly issued by a judge. Either the subject met the conditions of the bond (i.e. - paid it), or a judge ordered it. That's a records/district court screwup , if something gets entered wrong. I've seen it happen here. THe people in records are human, and they do type stuff in wrong. Also, most (heck, all of them almost) are handwritten, and a 8 can easily resemble a 3...

    My point to all this:

    This is the most rabidly anti-police site (other than the idiots out there at places like copwatch) I've ever been to. People on here jump at ANY chance to bash the police, even (especially, in some cases) when they don't know what the heck is going on. I really liked the part about having someone arrested because they mistyped a 3....Yeah, that's nice. How about that poster being arrested because he made a simple mistake?

    In any case, the booking/release system varies greatly from district to district (some of the smaller counties probably aren't open 24/7, like we are), let alone state to state. I mean, shouldn't people realize things might be different than where they live, especially on a board like this, where most of us keep up with multiple state law on CCW.


    So, the next time you write a number down incorrectly, please take yourself down to the nearest police station, and have them arrest you, 'kay? And while you're down there, make sure you tell them exactly how to do their job, since you're an expert at it, too.
     
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