Another Example of: If you draw a gun you need to be prepared to use it

[old lady new shooter]

Posted by Ash:

As I said, this has been discussed here many times.


v=YD3zIA6vJkQhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YD3zIA6vJkQ

Of course the Ayoob video shows the right way to answer the door, but a plain wood door like in the video can be kicked in very easily. Thanks to the previous owner of my house I have steel security doors on all the outside doors, I can open the wood door to talk to whoever is outside without any possibility of them getting in. (I only do that in the daytime though, would still not open the door at 2:00 a.m. like the video scenario.) If anyone here doesn't have these yet, I strongly suggest checking out the possibility, for around $100 per door you get a huge improvement in home security.

 

[JohnKSa]

The OP's point is well taken. If you draw a gun for defensive purposes you need to be READY/PREPARED to fire it.

There will, no doubt, be (and already has been) some confusion/argument on this thread due to a misinterpretation of that statement.

For some reason, some people can't understand the difference between being READY to use it and HAVING to use it once it is presented.

Being READY to use a gun every time you draw doesn't mean you MUST use it every time you draw.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Of course the Ayoob video shows the right way to answer the door, but a plain wood door like in the video can be kicked in very easily. Thanks to the previous owner of my house I have steel security doors on all the outside doors, I can open the wood door to talk to whoever is outside without any possibility of them getting in. (I only do that in the daytime though, would still not open the door at 2:00 a.m. like the video scenario.) If anyone here doesn't have these yet, I strongly suggest checking out the possibility, for around $100 per door you get a huge improvement in home security.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=729842&highlight=Door


Here's a thread I started about that video

 

[tepin]

In Ayoob's MAG20 class he said that if you are holding someone at gun point and they continue to advance, a reasonable and prudent person should conclude that the perpetrator believes they have the skills to disarm you and use the gun against you. Ayoob finished with... If the gun is in your hand or on the ground ten feet away, what's the difference? The answer to this question is there is no difference. Either way the perp is going for a gun.

 

[Ash]

John, it is clear that should one draw a pistol or firearm of any kind they should be willing to use it. I guarantee that my mom or grandfather would have fired their revolvers at the invaders/looters had they been required to. They were fully prepared to act. Otherwise, don't have one if all you are going to do is give it to the bad guy to use. That was not exactly clear in the OP's article, whether or not that is what happened. She might have been fully prepared to fire but something happened. Being prepared to fire does not mean we should fire. Indeed, there are times we should not, such as compliance by the foe, or his fleeing down the street. That was, and remains, the entire point I made. Merely holding a pistol without the intention to use it if forced is silly, I agree.

 

[JTHunter]

Over the last 30 years, the number of times I have answered my door with gun in hand (hidden behind my leg) is less than 10.
That being said, I could have wished for one at least the same number of times when I DIDN'T have one with me!
The one time I had it and needed it was when a drunken neighbor broke the storm door on my mobile home and came inside. (I had stupidly forgotten to close the inner door.) He was after his g/f with whom he was living (with her 3 kids) as they had a tendency to get a little rough with each other. She had come over to use my phone to call the local PD as their phone was cut off for non-payment. When he rattled the door, she ran for the back door while I was talking to the dispatcher. I had retrieved my .380 but was in a corner of the living room opposite the hallway and told the dispatcher: "He's here in my house and I'm pointing my gun at him. Now get out here!!"

Fortunately, the man was NOT so drunk that, seeing the gun and hearing what I said, he decided to turn and leave.

It took the locals almost 10 minutes to arrive.

As this guy was at least 4" taller and ~ 50 lbs. heavier than me, I wasn't about to let him take one step closer. So I was VERY glad when he left.

He came over the next day to both apologize and to help me repair the storm door's latch.

Considering how long it took for the locals to arrive, I'm also grateful I had that pistol.

 

[Kleanbore]

Over the last 30 years, the number of times I have answered my door with gun in hand (hidden behind my leg) is less than 10.
That being said, I could have wished for one at least the same number of times when I DIDN'T have one with me!

The question is not about the need, it is about whether having a gun in hand can expected to prevent one from being shot, stabbed, overcome and disarmed, etc.

 

[gamestalker]

IMO, and IME, if an individual intends to carry, or own a gun as a defensive tool, they must accept the responsibility that goes with that decision. The last thing any honest law abiding citizen should want to do is take the life of another human being. But if a person makes the decision to carry lethal force for the purpose of self defense, than they need to come to terms with that choice, in that it means you may have to shoot someone to defend your own life, or that of a loved one.

I have been in at least two situations in which the attacker played on my intentions, and even stated, "you won't use it", or "you don't have it in you to shoot ". In those situations the attacker read me wrong.

Either accept the responsibility, or don't. But don't carry one if you have no intention of ever using it should the need present. She was shot with her own firearm because she didn't accept that responsibility.Sitting on the fence is dangerous, and not just for that single victim, but all others the attacker should pick as their next victim, as he is now equipped with your firearm.

The other side of this coin is preparation and training. I've had a perpetrator attempt to take my weapon from me, in which I almost lost it. The distance a person can cover in a split second is surprisingly much greater than what most consider. My inability to effectively deploy and aim the weapon quick enough, resulted in me missing my mark with the first shot. Fortunately, or more so luckily for me, the first shot distracted the attacker just long enough for me to take proper aim, so that when he attempted to grab it the second time, I hit my mark. In my defense, he was dodging back and forth to try and get to me without getting shot, which almost worked for him, but ultimately he failed.

GS

 

[old lady new shooter]

IMO, and IME, if an individual intends to carry, or own a gun as a defensive tool, they must accept the responsibility that goes with that decision. The last thing any honest law abiding citizen should want to do is take the life of another human being. But if a person makes the decision to carry lethal force for the purpose of self defense, than they need to come to terms with that choice, in that it means you may have to shoot someone to defend your own life, or that of a loved one.

I have been in at least two situations in which the attacker played on my intentions, and even stated, "you won't use it", or "you don't have it in you to shoot ". In those situations the attacker read me wrong.

Either accept the responsibility, or don't. But don't carry one if you have no intention of ever using it should the need present. She was shot with her own firearm because she didn't accept that responsibility.Sitting on the fence is dangerous, and not just for that single victim, but all others the attacker should pick as their next victim, as he is now equipped with your firearm.

The other side of this coin is preparation and training. I've had a perpetrator attempt to take my weapon from me, in which I almost lost it. The distance a person can cover in a split second is surprisingly much greater than what most consider. My inability to effectively deploy and aim the weapon quick enough, resulted in me missing my mark with the first shot. Fortunately, or more so luckily for me, the first shot distracted the attacker just long enough for me to take proper aim, so that when he attempted to grab it the second time, I hit my mark. In my defense, he was dodging back and forth to try and get to me without getting shot, which almost worked for him, but ultimately he failed.

GS

If I read the previous posts correctly, we don't know that she didn't mentally accept the responsibility. Rather she may not have been sufficiently skilled to draw and shoot fast enough, and/or to prevent BG from taking the gun from her. Personally I waited until I was sure of being mentally ready before commencing my purchase, but right now I'm in the no-man's-land of being mentally prepared but not yet skilled enough for many situations.

 

[ku4hx]

Given the success with gubment sponsored programs like the VA, Obamacare and the IRS to name a very few, I can hardly wait for the Feds to get involved in permitting. I'm sure we'll all benefit, be treated fairly and generally come to love the fed intervention just like we love all the things they do so well.

 

[coondogger]

Interestingly, drawing a gun and not using it can get you into legal trouble in Israel. The courts' logic is that if you drew a gun and did not fire it, you must not have really thought your life was in danger.

 

[gamestalker]

Darn good thing we don't live in Israel.

Fair enough Old Lady Knew Shooter, we really don't know if she failed to accept the responsibility to engage the BG. Every situation is different, that said, we don't always know that we're going to need to draw down, and with the lack of information here, it's unclear, and nothing more than speculation.

She may not have had an opportunity to even draw before being relieved of her weapon. My wife and I have been in that situation also. I made my move as quickly as I could, but I guess the BG's either anticipated my actions, or they had simply planned an ambush. So I never got beyond laying my hand on the grip before I was staring down the barrels of two armed individuals. That's a stomach wrenching feeling knowing that your only hope of defending yourself, is now in the hands of the BG.

GS

 

[old lady new shooter]

Interestingly, drawing a gun and not using it can get you into legal trouble in Israel. The courts' logic is that if you drew a gun and did not fire it, you must not have really thought your life was in danger.

Someone recently sent me a link to an interview with the manager of a range in Israel, he mentions additional restrictions there and contrasts the situation with the US. Very interesting IMO.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmN9tiILvYU&feature=youtu.be

 

[old lady new shooter]

She may not have had an opportunity to even draw before being relieved of her weapon. My wife and I have been in that situation also. I made my move as quickly as I could, but I guess the BG's either anticipated my actions, or they had simply planned an ambush. So I never got beyond laying my hand on the grip before I was staring down the barrels of two armed individuals. That's a stomach wrenching feeling knowing that your only hope of defending yourself, is now in the hands of the BG.

GS

What a horrible experience! How did you solve it?

 

[coondogger]

This seems like a good time to point out one other thing about Israeli draw. The primary reason for carrying without a chambered round is this: in the event that an attacker is able to grab your weapon,
it will take him a second or two to figure out why it didn't fire. Those few seconds are to give you time to get the weapon back, which is also part of their combat pistol training.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by coondogger:

This seems like a good time to point out one other thing about Israeli draw. The primary reason for carrying without a chambered round is this: in the event that an attacker is able to grab your weapon, it will take him a second or two to figure out why it didn't fire. Those few seconds are to give you time to get the weapon back, which is also part of their combat pistol training....

Do you have some reason for believing that that was the primary reason for the initial adoption of that practice in Israel?

Do you believe that that would have helped at all in the event under discussion here?

I agree with this:

If you draw a gun for defensive purposes you need to be READY/PREPARED to fire it.

An empty chamber is not conducive to such readiness.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Interestingly, drawing a gun and not using it can get you into legal trouble in Israel. The courts' logic is that if you drew a gun and did not fire it, you must not have really thought your life was in danger.z

Can you cite case law or an actual statute to support this assertion?

 

[tepin]

This cop didn't have a round chambered and he ended up dead as a result:
Security footage HERE.