JRH6856
Member
I wish more people had the same level of concern regarding traffic signals. You can get killed just as easily by some idiot busting a red light. And I see it a lot more often.
Another gun range mistake
- Thread starter kb58
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Single Action Six
Member
Safety Vest..
KB 58 said in part..
When ever I go to the range there are several things I do before shooting. I always let the RO and whoever is shooting next to me know of my HoHi disability. In addition, I wear a Fluorescent Lime traffic safety vest which has reflective beaded stripes on it.
I've let the RO and other shooters know that if there's a cease fire, just reach out and tap me on the shoulder and I'll immediately STOP, engage safety, drop mag, lay my firearm down and step back.
In addition, I've found while wearing the vest (and being so easily seen), it helps to notify others behind the line that there are shooters who are downrange.
So far I've received good responses with my situation from both RO's and fellow shooters.
Single Action Six
KB 58 said in part..
When ever I go to the range there are several things I do before shooting. I always let the RO and whoever is shooting next to me know of my HoHi disability. In addition, I wear a Fluorescent Lime traffic safety vest which has reflective beaded stripes on it.
I've let the RO and other shooters know that if there's a cease fire, just reach out and tap me on the shoulder and I'll immediately STOP, engage safety, drop mag, lay my firearm down and step back.
In addition, I've found while wearing the vest (and being so easily seen), it helps to notify others behind the line that there are shooters who are downrange.
So far I've received good responses with my situation from both RO's and fellow shooters.
Single Action Six
45_auto
Member
Why did he mention that he was hard of hearing?
Did he acknowledge that the range was cold?
Was he one of the ones that walked downrange or was he at his bench reloading mags or something?
Was there a RO there?
Was it a public or private range?
I can't count the number of misunderstandings I've seen on a range (both public and private) where someone doesn't even know what a cold range is, or doesn't understand the rules about firearm handling on a cold range (our rules are that you don't touch a weapon on a cold range). I've had people about 5 yards to one side start walking downrange on a hot range, they thought it was okay as long as they stayed in their lane! They would have probably seen nothing wrong with shooting while others were downrange.
When shooting with people we don't know, we always have someone watching the other shooters. The guy in the OP's original post shouldn't have been able to touch a gun without someone yelling at him that people were downrange.
jcwit
member
This whole discussion makes me wonder just how any of you go bird or rabbit hunting with 3 or 4 friends. Everyone is walking downrange with loaded firearms, in their hands no less. And consider where the bird dogs are!
theautobahn
Member
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- 280
Common sense isn't so common.
Poor analogy, but do you walk in front of your friends? When I hunted birds, everyone was aware of where everyone else was. We had specific fields of fire and no shooter was in-line/in-range of another shooter.
Maybe some hunters are a little more nonchalant. That would explain the Dick Cheney incidents.
dagger dog
Member
I stopped shooting at a state owned property self regulated range. IMHO it was like a death wish, especially on weekends before hunting season started. Had the barrel of a loaded firearm pointed at me too many times.
I have a 25 yd pistol range set up on my property,but too much new construction has forced me to use a club range 25 miles away for my high power rifle shooting.
This range is enforced and well worth the $$$ and time to make the trip, but it has so many users, that they have had to go to using saftey flags in all the action upon cease fire.
The norm is 45 minutes shooting and a 15 miniute cease fire, once the cease fire has been called, RO asks if there are any hot muzzle loaders and permits them to shoot, then he calls for all weapons to be cleared, magazines removed ,cylinders opened ,slides or bolts locked back and the flags to be placed in the chambers., and all weapons are to be laid on the benches and all shooter to stay bhind the benches.
He then walks the firing line making sure all his commands have been heeded and then and only then are shooters permitted to go down range.
I have a 25 yd pistol range set up on my property,but too much new construction has forced me to use a club range 25 miles away for my high power rifle shooting.
This range is enforced and well worth the $$$ and time to make the trip, but it has so many users, that they have had to go to using saftey flags in all the action upon cease fire.
The norm is 45 minutes shooting and a 15 miniute cease fire, once the cease fire has been called, RO asks if there are any hot muzzle loaders and permits them to shoot, then he calls for all weapons to be cleared, magazines removed ,cylinders opened ,slides or bolts locked back and the flags to be placed in the chambers., and all weapons are to be laid on the benches and all shooter to stay bhind the benches.
He then walks the firing line making sure all his commands have been heeded and then and only then are shooters permitted to go down range.
Still Shooting
Member
Self-Policed Range Risks
On any range there are risks; on a range without a RO the risk is higher. But many clubs, including the one to which I belong, place high value on being able to use the facility when desired. We are basically open 365 days/year, excepting a few BR matches. Even on the weekends we host Appleseed groups, other members can use the range. In the latter situation, the Appleseed Instructors are the RO's, and all others must obey their calls for "Cease Fire," "Range Clear," and "Commence Firing."
We have a generally good group of people, but in the past year we have had 3 serious infractions. New range rules were adopted. TV cameras were installed on the line, and we have a series of red and yellow lights: 28 reds, with a switch at each of 50 benches so that anyone can declare a Cease Fire and "light it up." There is a yellow with a pull cord over each bench, and when going downrange, the yellow gets turned on. When we're finished downrange, the yellow gets turned off. Whoever calls a Cease Fire is the RO until the range is ready to go "hot" again, and he/she calls it (loudly!).
These rules are new. Yesterday, my daughter and I went shooting. While most everybody was doing a decent job at the new system, there was still a lot of more casual hand signalling and gestures. I accept this as a transition to the new system, as long as it's accompanied by use of the lights and no fooling around near the bench during a cease fire.
But there are a couple of questionable situations, even with this degree of control. When the range is cold and I want to grab a couple of targets and my staple gun, go downrange and post new targets, I can't really do so without crossing through the line. The cars are parked behind the line, and there are 50 benches. Going around the end of the line can add a lot of time to the Cease Fire, for everyone! If my stapler is in my range box, or next to it, I can't pick it up if the box is on the bench or on the ground next to it. And when I return to the line after putting up or checking targets, that yellow downrange light is right over the bench; I have to at least walk by that bench to turn the light off.
The new rules require some re-thinking about what gets placed where (range box, car, ......?). It will take some adjusting on everyone's part to be fully compliant. I don't argue with the new setup - in fact, it makes sense. But the mechanics of it will take us all some time to figure out. The infrequent range users will have the most trouble making it work. And we'll still have to keep an eye on each other in a constructive way.
On any range there are risks; on a range without a RO the risk is higher. But many clubs, including the one to which I belong, place high value on being able to use the facility when desired. We are basically open 365 days/year, excepting a few BR matches. Even on the weekends we host Appleseed groups, other members can use the range. In the latter situation, the Appleseed Instructors are the RO's, and all others must obey their calls for "Cease Fire," "Range Clear," and "Commence Firing."
We have a generally good group of people, but in the past year we have had 3 serious infractions. New range rules were adopted. TV cameras were installed on the line, and we have a series of red and yellow lights: 28 reds, with a switch at each of 50 benches so that anyone can declare a Cease Fire and "light it up." There is a yellow with a pull cord over each bench, and when going downrange, the yellow gets turned on. When we're finished downrange, the yellow gets turned off. Whoever calls a Cease Fire is the RO until the range is ready to go "hot" again, and he/she calls it (loudly!).
These rules are new. Yesterday, my daughter and I went shooting. While most everybody was doing a decent job at the new system, there was still a lot of more casual hand signalling and gestures. I accept this as a transition to the new system, as long as it's accompanied by use of the lights and no fooling around near the bench during a cease fire.
But there are a couple of questionable situations, even with this degree of control. When the range is cold and I want to grab a couple of targets and my staple gun, go downrange and post new targets, I can't really do so without crossing through the line. The cars are parked behind the line, and there are 50 benches. Going around the end of the line can add a lot of time to the Cease Fire, for everyone! If my stapler is in my range box, or next to it, I can't pick it up if the box is on the bench or on the ground next to it. And when I return to the line after putting up or checking targets, that yellow downrange light is right over the bench; I have to at least walk by that bench to turn the light off.
The new rules require some re-thinking about what gets placed where (range box, car, ......?). It will take some adjusting on everyone's part to be fully compliant. I don't argue with the new setup - in fact, it makes sense. But the mechanics of it will take us all some time to figure out. The infrequent range users will have the most trouble making it work. And we'll still have to keep an eye on each other in a constructive way.
All of our outside pistol ranges have a bar that is slid to the left for access down range. When the bar is turned to unlock and is slid left it breaks a contact. We have rotating amber lights that are activated at several stations along the pistol range.
That is some serious tunnel vision!
That is some serious tunnel vision!
theautobahn
Member
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I'm torn on this one. I can see the advantages of having an RO and lights and all the bells and whistles, but I honestly feel safer at the ranges I shoot at - although it's much less formal and low-tech, there's more communication (IMO) - I check with each shooter individually before going downrange (and of course my head is on a swivel as I do so, but it would be even at a policed range with an RO). As an added bonus, this results in better camaraderie between the members.
I don't want to get shot at the range, and I feel better about about taking my safety in my own hands rather than leaving it to a RO.
I don't want to get shot at the range, and I feel better about about taking my safety in my own hands rather than leaving it to a RO.
That ^ always worked for us to but being a boarder state and having the feds come buy monthly it was suggested and it works for us with minimum cost and hassle.
We installed the lights because we do not have a range officer except when full auto or something like the .50 is being shot.
lilguy
Member
I'm an RSO at our club, over 600 members, and that gentleman would be done shooting for the day. That's the reason I don't shoot at public/retail ranges. To much profit before safety. Like many things in life, you get away with it until you don't. Then all hell breaks loose.
bluetopper
Member
There is no range officer at our range and we don't want one. There are no employees only elected volunteer officers, and one of them might show up once a week. All members get the combination to the gate with a membership.
I hope when I make a mistake it's not posted on the internet.
I hope when I make a mistake it's not posted on the internet.
jcwit
member
NO! That does not explain the Dick Cheney incident. Yes there was a mistake made, yes bad things happened because of it. But accidents happen, to everyone, and happen every day.
None of us are perfect, and to imply that any of us can get thru life without having a screw-up is just ridiculous. Life is full of danger from the time the Dr. slaps us on the behind till the time we take our last breath.
Common sense folks should prevail. Frankly all of us are in much more danger driving to and from the range than any of the time spent there.
It is an excellent analogy actually. And by having specific fields of fire and no shooter in-line/in-range made it IMPOSSIBLE fir an accident to happen. Ya, Right!
There is an old saying the blank happens, and that holds true for every facet of life.
OK JC but what are you suggesting? How do we learn from our mistakes without consequences? One post mentioned just letting DUI's go if no one was hurt. I think drinking and driving demonstrates poor judgement. So does not being aware of a cold range.
Mistakes happen. But when a mistake endangers others there must be a response. Not to punish. More you made a mistake now I would like to give you some time to think about how to improve your focus.
ETA: Say what you like. I'm not bird hunting with Cheney.
Mistakes happen. But when a mistake endangers others there must be a response. Not to punish. More you made a mistake now I would like to give you some time to think about how to improve your focus.
ETA: Say what you like. I'm not bird hunting with Cheney.
Nushif
Member
I don't think anyone here is saying he didn't need a timeout.
What we're saying is that posting on the internet, calling him names and questioning whether he should have 2A rights and his morality and then calling for a permanent removal from a club is excessive.
What we're saying is that posting on the internet, calling him names and questioning whether he should have 2A rights and his morality and then calling for a permanent removal from a club is excessive.
buck460XVR
Member
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- Feb 6, 2007
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- 10,087
Exactly. But nowhere did the OP say anyone there had the authority/power to give that timeout.
That sounds like the appropriate action to take. But as I alluded to in my first post relating this incident to group hunting, if this was a range where no one has the authority to FORCE the offender to leave, than all one can do is tongue whip them and watch their back. If there was someone there with that authority, it surprises me that the appropriate action was not taken. Again, we cannot expect others to always look out for us. Many here carry for SD because they claim they cannot count on the police to keep them safe. Same goes for ranges without a RO or other formal supervision. One must always cover their own backside and look out for others around them.
jcwit
member
Nushif, a good post, and a reasonable response!
Tactfully, without making an axx out of the offending party.
Also seems like we have a few here who wish to have a power trip.
Tactfully, without making an axx out of the offending party.
Also seems like we have a few here who wish to have a power trip.
Most people are in their own world when they go to gun store ranges. You are on your own. I only use them when sighting in a new gun or function testing an old one. They all have those electric returns around here, so there is no need unless you drop a target off the clamp,to go any ware. And even if I drop one I would rather put a new one on than walk down that dark path with strangers holding guns in my direction.Even when you stop there is always a guy who is holding onto his gun. That's why I only go 5 or 6 times a year. If anyone knows a reasonable range in the Vero area, where they are more seasoned, please let me know. You can get killed in one of these places.
Blackstone
Member
It's a serious safety breach. Take him to one side, explain that you have to send him home for the day, make sure he understands what he did wrong. No need to make an example out of him in front of the other members, because it would be more for your own satisfaction than anything else.
Wow this got long... I'm the OP.
A few more tidbits:
1. It was early, about 10 am, and there were only two ROs at the range and both had gone to check the other ranges, so they weren't present.
2. "Range Cold" was called and to be honest I can't swear whether he was at the bench when "cold" was called; I was reloading so I don't know if he "got the message." It's possible that he'd gone to his car to get something and didn't hear the command. If the other shooter calling for a cold range didn't at least make eye-contact with him (if he was present), then the blame shifts to everyone.
3. As said earlier he admitted to being hard of hearing and that's forgivable, given our sport.
What was shocking to me though is that the shooter to his left who had already reached his target had to be in the guy's field of view (these were pistols, not rifles with scopes.)
I agree that we all make mistakes, but firing when others are downrange has got to be near the top of the unforgivable list as far as situational awareness go, right next to holding your pistol sideways to set the safety, while sweeping everyone along the bench.
I think a couple days or weeks of suspension is a good compromise as it doesn't punish him forever for something he clearly enjoys, but it also gets the point across about keeping on-guard.
Anyhow, I just posted this as a reminder to us all that we always have to have the situational awareness to catch these things before they go terribly wrong, and thankfully someone did, this time.
A few more tidbits:
1. It was early, about 10 am, and there were only two ROs at the range and both had gone to check the other ranges, so they weren't present.
2. "Range Cold" was called and to be honest I can't swear whether he was at the bench when "cold" was called; I was reloading so I don't know if he "got the message." It's possible that he'd gone to his car to get something and didn't hear the command. If the other shooter calling for a cold range didn't at least make eye-contact with him (if he was present), then the blame shifts to everyone.
3. As said earlier he admitted to being hard of hearing and that's forgivable, given our sport.
What was shocking to me though is that the shooter to his left who had already reached his target had to be in the guy's field of view (these were pistols, not rifles with scopes.)
I agree that we all make mistakes, but firing when others are downrange has got to be near the top of the unforgivable list as far as situational awareness go, right next to holding your pistol sideways to set the safety, while sweeping everyone along the bench.
I think a couple days or weeks of suspension is a good compromise as it doesn't punish him forever for something he clearly enjoys, but it also gets the point across about keeping on-guard.
Anyhow, I just posted this as a reminder to us all that we always have to have the situational awareness to catch these things before they go terribly wrong, and thankfully someone did, this time.
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BSA1
member
Well the way I see it five mistakes were made.
The first mistake was by the shooter who didn't hear the range command.
The other four were made by the shooters who went downrange without making sure the first shooter had heard the command and had cleared and grounded his gun.
I admit I don't like holy shirts...especially if it happens while I am wearing it.
The first mistake was by the shooter who didn't hear the range command.
The other four were made by the shooters who went downrange without making sure the first shooter had heard the command and had cleared and grounded his gun.
I admit I don't like holy shirts...especially if it happens while I am wearing it.
You're right about one thing, people make mistakes and accidents happen. But, when someone makes a critical error with a firearm and another person is wounded, it's difficult to say "Opps, my bad," and just drive on.
You have a very casual attitude about safety, so let's both be happy we're on different ranges.
I don't think that anyone has a casual attitude about safety. I just think it's a difference of opinion on making the punishment fit the crime. If I had been there and the gentleman had been allowed to continue than I would have left.
My only real authority is limited to me.
My only real authority is limited to me.
jcwit
member
You have no idea from personal experience about my attitude towards safety.
However I do realize there is such a thing as common sense that needs to be applied here and in most every situation involving our daily lives.
Ever go to a gun show and watch all the guns being pointed at others? Happens every weekend. We do not know as a positive whether the gentleman was in fact holding a loaded arm. I realize that doesn't excuse his actions but from his point of view it might.
None of us were there, none of us saw what actually happened, non of us even heard what was said or the tone of voice any of the remarks were made in.
Except for the OP of course.
I do believe tho we both should go on and be happy, I know I am!
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