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Another hypothetical scenario ........

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"The very fact that a violent felony is taking place in my presence makes it my business, ...."

Couldn't agree more.

....and I cannot accept the opinion to the contrary (although I do respect it). It is my duty as a citizen to protect the lives of those around me by any means possible."

Couldn't agree less. But what I think makes no difference. The courts and the laws in many places will just rip you limb from limb legally if they so decide if you assume the role or LEO or protector...and too often they do so decide.
In my heart I feel as you do, and I respect you for you opinion and your courage.
But I also know that by taking matters into my hands, the laws can be used against me to put me in prison or cost me every thing I own. I love my children too much to put them at risk by my playing cop. Honorable though it be.

Lawyers and judges and the ones that write the laws make it so.
S-
 
Hmmm...
Draw weapon
Aim
Say something to get his attention... like "Freeze"
Watch him react the way everyone does, that is, turn to face the
challege and bring his gun with him on the turn
Pull trigger until termination of target
Claim that the guy turned to point the gun at me.

And if he manages to nail me too... Well, I honestly think it is worth it... I didn't join the military because I felt there is some kind of debate on issues like this.
 
P95Carry,

Looking at your diagram, one thing I might think about would be to quietly back up (down and to the left) while quietly drawing, to open up the distance a bit. (Distance favors me rather than him.) My favored spot would be standing behind the other end of that display, mostly concealed. Also, you DON'T want to be standing 15 feet from the clerk with a drawn gun if the police suddenly arrive--if they take you for an accomplice, they may shoot you first.

Time, distance, and concealment permitting, I'd quietly dial 911 on the cell phone but don't say anything if concerned about being overheard (unless your phone beeps when you dial); cell phone location will be automatically pinpointed by the 911 system and at least get help on the way.

Thoughts on when/whether to intervene--here in Florida, you have a "duty to retreat" if you can do so safely to defuse a situation--but in the situation you described, it would NOT be safe to try to leave. Florida law also allows you to use deadly force to stop a forcible felony (such as armed robbery), even if you are not the object of said felony. So the question would be, wait and watch while prepared to act, or act preemptively.

For me, that would depend a lot on the circumstances--how much of a threat the BG seemed to be, both to the clerk and to me; how clear the shot was; whether or not he had a visible weapon; etc.
 
Handy stated, "By announcing yourself, you haven't increased the danger to your own skin, but have made follow up action more justified. "

I have to disagree. If the bad guy is not looking at you and not interacting with you, announcing your presence to the bad guy and maybe given commands to the bad guy WILL increase the danger to you as you have made yourself known to the bad guy and now present a risk to the bad guy.

At least in my state, such a situation would represent a justified use of lethal force to defend a life being threated and use of lethal force here does not require any sort of verbal or visible communication with the bad guy.

There is a neat security camera tape of a guy trying to hold up a convenience store. He drew a knife on the clerk and demanded the clerk lock the door. At that time, the customer behind the bad guy gently sets down his coffee, steps back, draws his weapon and arrests the bad guy for attempted aggrevated robbery. The bad guy wasn't aware there was another customer in line and certainly wasn't aware that the customer was a uniformed cop (off duty). So, by announcing yourself may in fact be the first clue to the bad guy that you are indeed there.
 
Matt, oh, come on! I've seen your Batman outfit, you caped, pointy-eared crusader you. Wouldn't you jump across the store with twin M9s blazing while wearing black?

P95, it's SELF-defense. In any fight, too many things to go wrong. Avoidance is best. Don't play Batman.
 
Looking at your diagram, one thing I might think about would be to quietly back up (down and to the left) while quietly drawing, to open up the distance a bit.
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I would agree there Ben .. although I had based this scenario on the fact that with my head visible, I was bound to have been seen .... but then disregarded. I guess maybe there are some perps out there who think their gun is the only gun.! (foolish)

If not seen tho yes ...... your idea is logical .. the only thing i would still have a prob with is 911 on the cell ... just don't think that'd work without drawing attention .. somehow. Plus as I said before ....... can't see cops coming quick enough perhaps . plus what the status quo might be when and if they did arrive.

All along I am weighing the chances for the clerk .... and whilst the BG might successfully get his demands met .. there is always the strong possibility that a guy hyped up on adrenalin is maybe gonna think, even when he has the cash ... '' should I leave a witness''?

Of course .. so very many ways this sorta thing can go ...... and a hypothetical like this is open to about every permutation under the sun.

It is interesting tho to get many people's take .... gives much food for thought and better helps see other angles I may have overlooked. Appreciation to all who have given their views.:)
 
In the vast, majority of armed robberies, no shots are ever fired. Anything you do - move, yell, pull a gun, whatever - will vastly increase the possibility that shots will be fired.

I personally think it is wise for those that have access to firearms adopt a fairly simple rule: don't threat or use deadly force unless you or a loved one is in immediate danger of serious bodily injury or death.

That rule doesn't appear to apply to this situation. Therefore, anything you do to try to alter events is going to significantly increase the chances of injury/death (to you or non-criminals), loss of freedom (you go to jail) or financial ruin (you are subject to civil law suits, criminal defence costs, lost wages, etc.). If it's your job to intervine in such things (security guard or police officer), that's a whole other thing. What do these commonly used terms have in common - self defence, personal protection, personel defence?
 
What do these commonly used terms have in common - self defence, personal protection, personel defence?
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Nick, point made .. and taken!!

I guess overall i am still wondering about the clerk - pretty 20 year old let's say .. could be my daughter or your wife ..... whilst I could easily have nightmares about legal costs, jail etc . i also have potential nightmares at the thought of watching someone get blown away ..... when I might just have prevented it!

In the end ..... it'd be ''what happened on the day''!

I for one tho sure have no wish whatever to take a life. I carry with a feeling of great responsibility .... and caution ...... but would find it hard to see another threatened with deadly force and not act.

As I said earlier .. just how much ''thinking time'' would one have? Not a lot.
 
Gentlemen, put yourself in the clerk's shoes. He's thinking:

1. "Oh my God I might get shot!"
2. "I wish someone would HELP ME!"

I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't like the idea of spending another 60+ years trying to forget about the day that store clerk got shot and killed while I was standing right there with a loaded weapon.

Why do some of you think that protecting the innocent is a duty reserved for those wearing badges? Don't you have any interest in public safety other than your own?

If you want to play the odds and do your good Samaritan work after the fact, go ahead. I'd rather be able to live with myself, even if I'm sued, broke, or on trial.
 
the only thing i would still have a prob with is 911 on the cell ... just don't think that'd work without drawing attention .. somehow. Plus as I said before ....... can't see cops coming quick enough perhaps . plus what the status quo might be when and if they did arrive.
Click to expand...
You're probably right about that not being practical. I was thinking it would be a good idea to get help on the way in case someone got hurt, but on the other hand taking your eyes off the BG may make it more likely that things won't go your way. If I were in the rest room or outside, maybe.

The more I think about it, the more I think I'd back up to a concealed position while drawing, and keep him in my sights, unless my family was with me (in which case I might have to be more proactive). As to whether or not to shoot proactively, I haven't reached a conclusion yet. You're certainly legally justified, and tactically it might be the best choice, but the aftermath could be tough (although Devonai's point is well taken). if it was my son or daughter behind the counter, I'd hope a bystander would intervene . . .

Your scenario is definitely worth thinking through, just to grapple with the issues.
 
I've been the clerk behind the counter. Late '70's - putting myself through school. Working the night shift at a local convenience store - all alone at the time of night when the only people on the streets were drunks, crooks and cops. Yes, there were the "real time" episodes where clerks in the immediate area were being taken to the cooler and shot through the head. The time when a jacked up acting guy fitting the MO of carrying a shot gun under a trench coat came through the door. The guy who went berzerk in the parking lot because I wouldn't unlock the store's door and sell him beer while I was closing and counting the till. There were times I went to bed with the shakes, only then fully realizing I could just as well have been on the floor in a pool of of my own blood posing for homicide photos.

I was aware of the risks. I took steps to defend myself if I had to (if I could). I learned to "read" people. I worked throught the various senerios, and determined when I would take "despirate" measures if necessary. I NEVER seriously considered being "saved" by anyone. When I was in a tough situation, I didn't want to deal with an additional possible threat created by someone who happened to wander by with a gun in their belt.

I applaud the intentions of those of you who are willing to risk your health, your family's long term security, your personal freedom and your life to save my hide. But the practical reality is that most of us do not have the training under stress to difuse dangerous situations short of the use of deadly force. We think we know how we would react with a gun in hand pointed at loud, cursing bobing & weaving punk with a gun - but few have really experienced it. We do not have the unlimited resources of the tax payer to defend us if we screw up. A local bank or radio show may praise our heroizim and collect some money for our medical bills or grieving survivors. But two weeks after the fact, your story is old news - and your life (if any) goes on.

Thankfully, I no longer have to clerk behind the counter - it's one of the most dangerous jobs out there from a criminal attack standpoint. But it was a very enlighting experience. I've also managed to gather a few nickles together - and now have the responsibility of supporting a family to consider, not just my own hide. It's commendable to have compassion for another human being. But as the old saying goes - charity begins at home. Do what you think is best at the time - but there are always consiquences. And when you pull a firearm on another human being - the consiquences can be tremendous.
 
In Canada... It is a lose lose situation. Not only can you not carry... so that eliminates that option, but if you do anything that may injure the BG (ie hit him with abaseball bat, run him over with your car, or in the extreme shoot him if you are the clerk) you can face criminal charges and very serious time in prison.

Our laws train us to act like chickens and mice, while weaker members of our society get abused.

Every police department, crown prosecutor (DA) etc.. would say be a good witness and call the police at the first available time.

Just thought you might like to know from this side of the border.
 
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Im amazed that you had to ask that question in america,
But in reality, I do understand why it was asked,,,,
it is a very good question,,,,,And Im Glad that you Asked it!
I am starting to Believe that such a question has to be seen in print for the most to read, before it sinks in,,
well,,,, let me tell ya how to handle that kinda situation..,,
You should stand there and wait on your local law enforcement officials or your elected Politicians to arrive to save the day,,,,,,since they know best for us in that situation,,,(Just like Roy Rodgers did) Remember ? Dang, I can remember back that far,,,,,cant remember what I had for lunch though,,,,,
simple! Since we have no ability to rule our own minds or judgments in our lives in any given situation,,,( including the one you presented) especially if we had a Fight with an old girlfriend 10 years ago,,,which means one of yer butts goto jail, ,,,10 years after that (married and happy 7 years)it MEANS YOU CANT PACK,EVER, NEVER,,Not at all, since we are misdemeanor FELONS under a Federal statue,,,
The Law ? Seems to know what is Best for us,,,,,, Only thing is? Is that "I disagree" with that law,......
and millions of others do also,,,,,who have been put in double jepordy, and denied due process,,
Like you said, if in that situation, call 911,,,, that should fix the problem,,,,,,they should be there in a few hours,,,, simple, easy,,,
and save us from ourselves so that we can vote,,,
in fact, Im not even sure my vote was counted in that last lection,,,hmmmmmmm? Now I hear GW Bush is about to extend the assault rifle ban,,,,,
Dangit,,,,, I never thought it would happen, but there it is,,,,,,
an un-armed man, is the victim,,,,
Lets make sure we watch what happens in the future, to not only keep our rights, but also RESTORE our rights,,,,,,
yeah, I know, its easy to not give a hoot when you can own one, but it isnt when you cant, and youve done NOTHING WRONG, LETS BRING BACK THE AMERICA that I FOught For ,,,,,,,,HR
 
About 2 years ago a friend of mine from High school was working as a clerk at a liquor store. One night a man came into the store pointed a gun at him and demanded what money was in the register all of $30 some bucks.

My friend did as he was told opened the register and gave the man the money. At point blank range the clerk put up no fight.

The man then told him to turn around he did.

The BG then shot my friend in the back of the head with a .22 caliber pistol.

There is now a 2 yr. old boy with no father.

LET ME BE PEFECTLY CLEAR .....I WOULD PUT A BULLET IN THE BG'S HEAD BEFORE HE EVER KNEW I WAS THERE!!!!

I assure this is a true story. His wife formerly an anti has now changed her views

Employers tell you to comply with robbers, I've never been the compliant sort.

If you pull a gun you better damn sure be willing use it!
I know I am.
 
Sorry to hear about your friend, Jedi. :(

Your story shows clearly that COMPLIANCE WITH THE CRIMINALS DOES NOT WORK.

By complying with the criminal to the end, you're putting your life in their hands, while at the same time have no idea of their intentions or metal state; If I were your friend, when the BG told me to turn around, I would have charged/jumped at the BG (realising what was about to happen... why else would he want your back facing him like that?), and wrestled the gun from him, plus attempting to beat him senseless (or shoot him with his own gun). And yes, it is very likely you'll soak up a round or two, but that's certainly better than getting gunned down with a clear headshot while your back is turned. Your chances are better taking one or two .22LR rounds in the torso and/or arms while in the process of a fight than getting shot in the head during politically correct complaince.
 
I don't know about other states, but in Virginia it's pretty tough to kill anybody and not get spanked hard for it. IIRC from my CHL classes, it boils down to this:

SELF defense is legal. They'll charge you, you then PROVE self-defense, (burden of proof on defendant) and get out of the jail they've been keeping you in since the shooting.

Defense of others MAY be JUSTIFIABLE. No firm definition of this exists in Virginia code, so you go to trial and a jury decides if what you did was the right thing under the guidance of your lawyer and whatever DA you happen to draw.

Either way, the terrasphere's family will sue you and you'll spend the next few years and a bunch of $$$ defending yourself with no guarrantee that you won't spend the rest of your life supporting little Johnny Crackhead's 15 kids.

Call me a selfish jerk, or even a coward, but If I've got time to think about it, I'm probably not going to be shooting. All bets ofre off once the adrenaline reaches critical mass, and I've never had the misfortune to be in a situation like that. With time to think though, I have to ask myself two questions.

1 Is the clerk's life worth defending? YES. I'll call 911 and be a good witness. I may still shoot if I really think he's going to kill the clerk. Otherwise, I'll stay behind whatever cover I can find.

2 Is the clerk's life worth mine and the wellfare of my dependants? I may have some bad dreams afterwards, but I think not.
 
H Romberg

Actually, the Virginia statutes are quite clear as to when using deadly force is appropriate.

There is a huge, detailed section of the code that deals with when it's ok to stop a felony, protect others, etc. It even goes so far as to say that someone can "stand their ground", meaning not retreat.

Now, maybe Fairfax is different, but in most parts of the state, if your actions are clearly justified, you WILL NOT be charged. This has happened several times that I am aware of.

Also, something helpful to do is to read case histories on how such incidents have been treated in Virginia -- Virginia respects the rights of citizens to bear arms, and to use them responsibly. However, if you are a criminal, woe unto you. Commiting any violent crime in Virginia is dealt with VERY harshly, as it should be.

You probably heard about the story a couple months ago somewhere in Eastern Virginia - where a store patron shot a robber in the back as he was exiting a store after robbing it. That was ruled as justifiable by the local prosecutor -- I don't think I personally would have shot a fleeing felon, but it is legal in Virginia.

Obviously, careful judgement should be used - but I won't stand by and let the lowest scum among us just run over everyone. Everyone has their own priorities. Do what's right for you.

--tadyson
 
I agree with JW2

To sum it up, in most cases I would probably just take cover and observe.


Make a 911 call on the cell phone if possible. The legal implications of shooting someone can be over estimated.

Imagine being in court with a lawyer that asks why you felt the need to shoot Mr. BG.

"I was afraid for my life."


"Was the gun aimed at you?" "No"

"Was Mr. BG even aware you were there? " "No"

"Did you have to shoot him 8 times?" "Yes"

"Why?" " I only had one in the chamber and a 7 round mag instead of an 8 rounder for my 1911."

etc.:scrutiny:
 
I've got a few thoughts:

1. Around here, there has been a disturbing trend over the last couple of years, where the BG does shoot the clerk. Sometimes, he shoots the clerk first, then grabs the money. So I would tend to believe the worst was going to happen.
Last year, a high school honor student was working the late shift at a mini mart. He was found dead in a pool of blood. Turns out the perp felt he "had" to shoot him, because they went to high school together.

2. Also, here in Tennessee, unless the law changes, I've broken the law myself if I have my gun in a stop-n-rob, because they sell alcohol. Not sure how that will factor in, when all is said and done.
(This has been before the legislature before, so I'm hoping it will change.)

3. During CCW class, we were all reminded: Even if no charges are filed against you, you will, in all probablility be sued by the "victim's" (BG's) relatives. So, I've accepted the fact, if I have to pull my gun, I'm going to court, one way or another.
In Tennesse, it is justifiable to use deadly force if someone has the means, the access, and the intention of harming you, or someone else.

I guess I would say, don't carry if you are afraid it is going to look bad in court.
Shoot? Don't shoot? Who is to say the bad guy won't take the clerk's money, then scope the store out, spot you, and demand your money?

When all is said and done, if you're in a place, and a robber walks in, you're having a really bad day. I just hope I make the right decisions if it ever happens to me.
 
With the whole 3 strikes your out thing..this particular bad guy just got two of his three strikes...and my guess is he is probably a wife beater or some dumb gang member and has already got one of his strikes...so that makes 3...no more lowriders or 40'z or crack pipes for this particular BG..he is going to prison for good...and he already knows it...as soon as he walked into that store he knew that it was either their life or his..and nothing is going to change that...

He knows that he is going to jail...and he'd rather die in a blaze of gunfire than be a pincushion to the rest of the "rehabilitated community" in the correctional system. He also knows that there is a great chance of him meeting someone like us..and he is also prepared for that.

I say shoot first ask questions later. My life or some other innocents life..doesnt matter to me..in my eyes a life is a life, and someone hell bent on taking one just doesnt give me a good reason not to pull the trigger.
 
All this makes me glad I live in Texas, with the laws written as they are.

I'd quietly draw and acquire a good sight picture. I'd quietly clear my throat. It is my belief the Bad Guy would at least turn his head and most likely his gun would come off aim at the clerk.

I know I can shoot before he can acquire me as a target.

It's up to him. It's his choice whether he lives or dies. The track record of Grand Juries in Texas is strongly in my favor, regardless of the outcome.

Art
 
AE. I like the way you think

Maybe we could crosss bred some of you Texans with us Hoosiers and make a liberal resistant strain of folks with common sense? Maybe I just need to move to Texas.
 
Yeah Art!!

I think in that situation, I would cut out the throat clearing aspect. Heck, the bad guy may be experiecing adrenaline-caused auditory exclusion and never hear the throat clear.

The way I see it, if the bad guy has managed to make a significant tactical blunder of not fully controlling the situation and the people in the situation, I see no reason to give him a chance to rectify the matter. The situation is life or death with an obvious and blatant threat of lethal force. You are in a lethal force justified conflict (at least here in Texas). At that point, the first time the bad guy needs to know that you are armed and a threat to him is as your first rounds are passing through his brain. As you know, there are no laws here that say you have to give warning in such a situation and not laws that preclude you from shooting the bad guy from the back or side when he does not know you are there.

The tactical blunder is his for not properly controlling the situation. It is best that the good guy not make a comparable tactical blunder by giving the bad guy a time to react.
 
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