Another noob with another 9mm reloading question - seating depth/OAL

[spoogie]

I've reloaded rifle ammo with minimal trouble for about 6+ mos.

Now I've ventured into pistol ammo reloading, all with RCBS stuff.

I've got a perplexing problem (to me, anyway). I've searched this forum, Google, etc. and picked up a few tips, but I'm still stuck.

I'm loading for a Springfield XDm 9 with once fired range pickup brass, Berry's 115 gr. RN DS (round nose, double struck?) and used RCBS dies. (Man, that sounds cheap).

Yesterday, I was making up some dummy rounds to get flare and bullet seating figured out. I don't have a taper crimp die yet; which I planned to get. I have a roll crimp bullet seating die from 1982. I can't seem to turn the die down enough into the press to seat the bullet yet not get the roll crimp.

I couldn't get dummys to chamber. Then I tried not flaring a case, and just seating the bullet after just sizing the brass (like a rifle round). It worked/chambered! But, I just tried it with one dummy.

Then I noticed my bullets were getting smudged with grime. I had wiped the dies off before and Q-tip'd the inside, but noticed there was still lots of gunk where the bullet nose contacts the die, maybe 0.010". So I really scrubbed it with toothpicks wrapped in paper towel, Q-tips and Breakfree CLP.

Now, with a clean die, and the die just starting to hit the brass, I can get an OAL of 1.17", but manuals say 1.16" is the max., and most loads I'd like try are around 1.13". Now nothing will chamber since I assume they're too long or the roll crimp is making the top of the case dia. over .380".

So is it the seating dies fault? Can these be adjusted by loosening the nut on the very top? Doesn't look like there's a gap on the inside to move the seating plug down any farther, but maybe it slides inside of the opening. I can't get mine to move. Or, aren't they supposed to? This used die may need some penetrating oil to loosen it up or something, I can't budge it without trying vice grip pliers or something. So, I thought I'd run it by these great minds before I break my seating die that isn't supposed to move?

Any insight would be appreciated. Thanks.

-Spoo-G

 

[Grub Master]

I have had the same problem with my XDM 9mm. Here is my thread. Get the Lee crimp. The members here have been very helpful and I think I can do it now. Let me know what works. Good luck.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=580313

 

[LiveLife]

I disassemble my Lee dies completely to clean the inside with solvent/brush/Q-tip and wipe them down.

Afterwards, they all get tossed (disassembled parts) in the vibratory tumbler with walnut media and brass or Nu-Finish polish. Walnut will remove any fine surface rusting and polish will put a protective coating on the surface.

Easiest way to clean/polish/protect your dies!

 

[cfullgraf]

So is it the seating dies fault? Can these be adjusted by loosening the nut on the very top? Doesn't look like there's a gap on the inside to move the seating plug down any farther, but maybe it slides inside of the opening. I can't get mine to move. Or, aren't they supposed to? This used die may need some penetrating oil to loosen it up or something, I can't budge it without trying vice grip pliers or something. So, I thought I'd run it by these great minds before I break my seating die that isn't supposed to move?

Any insight would be appreciated. Thanks.

-Spoo-G

The seater plug should move up and down by loosening the small jam nut on the top of the die and then turning the stem. You should be able to remove the plug by screwing the stem down into the die and removing the plug from the bottom of the die.

Sounds like your plug may be jammed with bullet lubricant from seating cast bullets or has corroded in place. Soak the die in solvent and/or penetrating oil. Be careful of the slot in the top of the seater stem as it will not take too much force before breaking.

I believe the stem on the old dies are standard 1/4"-20 threads so you might screw two nuts on the stem, jam them together and then you would have a better means of turning the stem without damaging the stem or threads.

If bullet lubricant is the problem, warming the die a little may help soften the lubricant so that the stem may be removed.

For use, you adjust the die body up and down to set the crimp. Then you adjust the seater stem to set the seating depth.

hope this helps.

 

[spoogie]

Thanks.

That worked to free the seater plug, with vice grips on the die and leatherman on the locking nut. Chuck Hawks says to adjust that plug, but I had to read it a few times, and I was still confused. Now to get OAL adjusted.

Off to the bench!

-Spoogie

 

[spoogie]

Thanks Grub. I read that thread prior to posting. It did have a lot of helpful info. as far as dimensions, etc.

-S

 

[spoogie]

<snip>

For use, you adjust the die body up and down to set the crimp. Then you adjust the seater stem to set the seating depth.

hope this helps.

I planned on getting a taper crimp die shortly and not using the roll crimp die that I currently have. Just using it to seat bullets until the taper crimp shows up in the mail.

-S

 

[rfwobbly]

Spoogie -
Welcome to THR !



• The generous radius on the base of each Berry bullet means that minimal flair is required. It's so generous, I am often tempted to run with zero flair. However, the one thing you do NOT want to happen is gouge through the plating. So some small amount of flair helps to get things started. Consider a small flair as "insurance".

• The standard RCBS seating die should NOT be applying a roll crimp. Roll crimp is not used on 9x19 because the case mouth has to have flat surface for the cartridge to headspace on. I believe you must have the die body set far too deep.



As in the graphic above, the die body (blue) works on the case, the seating stem (red) only works on the bullet. So you have 2 completely independent adjustments to make. While your stem may be right, your die body is way off.

• If you are using a single stage press, then crimping in the Seating Die is usually best. If you are using a progressive press and have an empty 4th die position, then crimping in the last position works great without adding labor. I would highly recommend the Lee Taper Crimp Die. At about $10 each, they are very nice pieces of equipment to have. Click Here

Hope this helps!

 

[Walkalong]

I'll second that. It makes things easier to set up. Anyone having trouble setting up the seating and crimping in the same step can eliminate that problem by crimping in another step. It is not necessary for 9MM (or other auto cases using a light taper crimp), but it is easier.

I am using Redding copies of the Lyman M die as well as a couple of Lyman M dies to expand cases. They work just great with plated bullet. I adjust them so there is no flare as with normal flair dies, just a second step a hair over bullet diameter.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=6085768&postcount=17

 

[cfullgraf]

I taper crimp in a separate operation, even on a single stage press. I got into the habit when seater dies only had roll crimps and you had to buy a separate taper crimp die.

It is definitely more convenient on a progressive where multiple operations are done at the same time.

These days, the manufacturers make auto pistol die with taper crimps so the crimp could be done at the same time as seating the bullet.

 

[918v]

I have a feeling the OP does not have a 9mm die set and is trying to use a 38/357 seater to seat and crimp the bullets in 9mm cases.

 

[spoogie]

I have a 1982 9mm Luger RCBS die #20509 which is a roll crimp as I understand, which I don't want in a semiauto, as I understand. The 20509 isn't marked "TC", for taper crimp. I had a friend pick it up used, and apparently I needed #20515 which includes the taper crimp and is generally what is available in stores around here. I was ignorant of the difference in crimps in 9mm dies -- or assumed I was getting the correct crimping/seating die. The flare die has 38/9mm stamped on it, though.

Single stage press, btw.

I turned the die body down with no bullet sitting on the brass, until the die body just hit the brass, then backed it off so as not to use the roll crimping of the die body, then adjusted the seating plug so it was seating the bullet to the proper depth.

As far as flaring, I flare it to 0.355" inside brass dimension. Any more and it seems to bulge past 0.380" outside brass dimension when seating the bullet.

-Spoogie

 

[Walkalong]

I have a feeling the OP does not have a 9mm die set and is trying to use a 38/357 seater to seat and crimp the bullets in 9mm cases.

Makes sense.

 

[918v]

I have a 1982 9mm Luger RCBS die #20509 which is a roll crimp as I understand, which I don't want in a semiauto, as I understand. The 20509 isn't marked "TC", for taper crimp. I had a friend pick it up used, and apparently I needed #20515 which includes the taper crimp and is generally what is available in stores around here. I was ignorant of the difference in crimps in 9mm dies -- or assumed I was getting the correct crimping/seating die. The flare die has 38/9mm stamped on it, though.

If you have a dedicated 9mm seater, it should not have a roll crimp. It prolly has a taper crimp. It might look like a roll crimp to you, but it isn't.

The way to adjust your die to eliminate the crimp is to screw the die down on a sized and unflared case: Place a new or sized case in the shell holder, raise the ram all the way up, screw the die down until you feel it bottom out against the case mouth, back off a quarter turn, lock down the lock ring. Now back out the seater stem all the way out. Remove the empty case and replace it with a loaded round. Raise the ram all the way up and screw the seater stem in until you feel it hit the tip of the bullet.

Now you have the die adjusted to seat without crimping to factory OAL. Go ahead and figure out the OAL you wanna use and seat all of your bullets. To taper crimp only, remove the seater plug and screw the die down on your loaded round until you see a slight kiss on the case mouth. That right there is enough crimp.

 

[spoogie]

So, what would you say the difference is between RCBS die set #20509 and die set #20515?

More pix. of the 20509 set.

 

[918v]

I'd say the current dies are designed with different adjustments and the parts do not interchange, hence the new part number.

If I were you, I'd try adjusting the die like I wrote in post #14 and see if you like the results.

 

[spoogie]

I'll give it a whirl, tonight perhaps.

Thanks.

 

[ranger335v]

I won't say anything could never occur but it's a virtual certainty your seater/crimper is a taper. No maker is going to intentionally put a roll crimper in a die for an autoloader cartridge, nor a taper crimper in a revolver cartridge die. I've never seen any die with a TC or RC stamp to indicate the crimp type.

There is no advantage to locking seater stems (or anything else) down like a motor head bolt; snug is plenty.

RCBS seater stems are usually 1/4" x 28.

 

[atonguis]

I have a RCBS die that is stamped TC and is stamped Tampered Crimp

 

[spoogie]

After I got everything set in one step with the seating/crimping, it seemed to work out.

Thanks to rfwobbly, cfullgraf, 918v, walkalong, etc.

 

[ranger335v]

"I have a RCBS die that is stamped TC and is stamped Tampered Crimp "

It seems unlikely they stamped both "Tapered Crimp" and "TC" on the die to indicate the crimp type, that would be redundant.