Another one-punch kill

[Joejojoba111]

If you've got a choice between playing it safe with the law, or playing it safe with your life, and the two are clearly diametrically opposed, which will you pick? I don't want to minimize legal ramifications, I respect those that devote time and energy to the pursuit of said knowledge - but... I'm picking 'play it safe with my life'.

 

[Correia]

I almost killed a guy by hitting him once. (unconscious for a few days, many many stitches, mostly from where his head hit a metal pipe on the way down) Never underestimate how much damage your skull can receive by a single blow, especially from somebody strong, or who knows how to do it right.

This question comes up in my CCW class all of the time, and like every other single situation you can think of, you just need to take a look at it from the perspective of immediacy, ability, and opportunity. And whether or not you are in danger of receiving grevious bodily harm. (Utah standards, I'm not speaking for any other states).

If the person trying to hit you can cause grevious bodily harm, and they have the ability to do so, right then, then shooting is justified. Now the difference is, I'm going to have a harder time justifying that in court, than somebody who isn't a hulking behemouth.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Travis McGee: "How is it going to play to the grand jury has to be a big part of the calculus"

Exactly

Matt Payne: "I don't have time for that."

Sorry, sir, you better make time.

Correia: "Now the difference is, I'm going to have a harder time justifying that in court, than somebody who isn't a hulking behemouth"

Exactly, again.

I'm 6'5" and weigh 285 pounds. I'm 40 but appear 30-32 years old. I appear to be in excellent health and reasonably good condition. It's probably discoverable that I took Aikido for two years and moved up two levels (no belts in Aikido, except for black) in that time.

Unfortunately the truth is that I'm a chronic smoker that couldn't run a block. I have a bad back. My knees are shot. And--most significantly--I'm a wimp. I couldn't win a fight with an underweight 15 year old (unless I fell on him).

However, a jury will never see any of my "ailments". They will see the prosecutor pointing at a giant of a man that should have been able to defend himself without a gun.

It sucks, but it absolutely HAS to be considered and incorporated into my use of force continuum.

 

[Joejojoba111]

I understand your concerns, but I feel, in my gut, that you'll forget those concerns if the situation in question should ever arise. It just seems like if that's what you're thinking about when under attack, it does not bode well.

 

[Snake Eyes]

From my perspective, carrying a gun does not preclude me from thinking. Indeed, carrying a gun requires me to think clearly, quickly and well.

 

[Andrew Rothman]

Travis McGee: "How is it going to play to the grand jury has to be a big part of the calculus"

Matt Payne: "I don't have time for that."

Snake Eyes: Sorry, sir, you better make time.

If I've got time to carefully consider how a jury might react, I obviously am not in peril. When you don't have time, you don't have time!

However, a jury will never see any of my "ailments". They will see the prosecutor pointing at a giant of a man that should have been able to defend himself without a gun.

I also have a better opinion of the legal process than you; A jury will not just see your large, though devilishly-attractive hulk -- they'll also testimony from you, your cardiologist, your priest and your sensei. ("Ah, Snake Eye? He mountain-size, but he big wimpy-boy! He no hurt fly!")

Shoot/don't shoot is always a gut call. If it's justified, it's justified. The legal standard is, generally, did you reasonably conclude that you were at risk of death or GBH?

The ability to point to previous knowledge recent, local, specific examples of one-punch kills can only bolster that reasonable conclusion.

 

[NineseveN]

One part I think some are missing here. If you are legally carrying a firearm, ANY physical scuffle or altercation can be a serious threat to your life. Yeah, maybe the punch would not kill me (I'm 6'2", 200lbs and did the whole martial arts thing, can fight reasonably well yadda yadda), but a decent blow may disorient me enough, that the attacker could gain the upper hand, and in the resulting scuffle, find the sidearm strapped to my hip, remove it from my person and place a mag-full of hollow-points into my body (or someone else’s after he kills me etc...).

If I am concealing a firearm (always), I will ask, and yes, even plead my way out of a physical altercation. Because I know that if you persist, get too close and show an intent to attack, or do not allow me to try and retreat/dissuade you, I will, without reservation end you, right then, right there. Doesn't make me cool, doesn't make me a rebel, doesn't make me tough. It makes me more concerned for my life than what some jury might say.

For those that are concerned with what a jury will think of me. Thank you, I appreciate your concern, it's appreciated, but I respectfully decline any advice contrary to my written viewpoint in this thread.

 

[Andrew Rothman]

...and Brady makes three.

I'll say it again. Getting punched, even for a healthy and strong 17-, 21- or 50-year old, can result in grievous bodily harm or death.

Two charged in fist fight that left student with brain damage
June 24, 2005

Two friends were charged Thursday with punching a college student and causing a brain injury after he was thrown out of a bar in Minneapolis in May.

John W. Arthurs, 21, of Spring Lake Park, and Ryan M. Goth, 21, of Minneapolis, are each accused of punching Brady Anderson, who is in his early 20s, once in the face after Anderson was kicked out of the Lone Tree Bar and Grill about 2 a.m. May 1, according to a criminal complaint filed Thursday in Hennepin County District Court.

Anderson, who was close to graduating from the University of Minnesota at the time, was escorted out of the bar by a bouncer, according to the complaint. The bar's owner has said that Anderson brought beer into the bar and that the bouncer asked him to leave. Anderson approached Arthurs and badmouthed the bouncer, who was a friend of Arthurs', court documents show.

Arthurs went into the bar and came out later. When he saw Anderson, he told him to leave. Anderson refused, saying he was waiting for friends. Arthurs then punched Anderson in the face, the complaint said. Anderson put his arms over his face and then lowered them. Goth, who was with Arthurs, then punched Anderson in the face, causing him to fall backwards and hit the back of his head on the cement, the complaint said. Anderson did not move after the fall.

Medical examinations showed Anderson suffered fractures in his facial bones and brain injury, including hemorrhaging and brain swelling. A bone flap from his skull was removed to alleviate the swelling, court documents show.

His family could not be reached to comment about his condition.

Arthurs and Goth are each charged with first-degree assault.