Another reason I loathe most gun shops

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He's not in business to break even or facilitate trades for his customers. He's in business to buy wholesale and sell retail - and that's the only way he can stay in business!
Yes, and that is exactly what he would be doing by selling me the Springfield loaded at full cost.

Wrong! He lost the sale of the other gun he has in his inventory - the one he bought wholesale with the comfortable profit margin - the one the customer would have walked out with if yours wasn't there!
I already addressed this. I would also say that a NIB gun at a small discount in the used display could very well entice a customer that wasn't considering buying.
 
Yes, and that is exactly what he would be doing by selling me the Springfield loaded at full cost.

Nope, he'd be selling at a discount because he just bought your rifle for $100 more then he could buy it wholesale.

I already addressed this. I would also say that a NIB gun at a small discount in the used display could very well entice a customer that wasn't considering buying.

A $29 discount on a used gun is hardly a huge enticement! The customer would just as likely ask for a $50 discount and not get it - then walk away mad because the gun store owner is a "jerk".

Keith
 
OMG. I can't believe the mathematical illiteracy on this thread.

That's OK. Anyone that's ever run a gun shop (Or any retail) can't believe the business illiteracy on this thread.


Right next to me is another customer who sees this take place and says "hey, I'd like to buy that gun."

Funny you didn't mention this "customer" before. He wasn't there, the point is moot.

At this point, they have made zero profit, but again, they have lost nothing.

How? Did you go into the shop on some special day where he doesn't have to pay rent, taxes, payroll, electric bill, phone bill, insurance, and everything else his business requires?

NOW, immediately following this, I take $199 out of my wallet, combine it with the $450 the gun shop just gave me, and buy a new loaded 1911. The gun shops records this as a profit,

As yourself and others have said, this is a desireable gun. He's going to sell it anyway. This profit zeroes out of the equation and we are left asking:

Why should he pay you more for a (technically) used gun, than he'd have to pay his distributor for a brand shiny new one?

:banghead:
 
OMG. I can't believe the mathematical illiteracy on this thread.

Hmmm. I don't thinks there is much mathimatical illiteracy here as there is more business illiteracy.


Lets say this shop owned by Mr. Owner is into selling guns. He can get gun S from his regular buddy, Mr. Distribute, at $350. In walks Mr. Ron V and says 'Say, I got this here gun S NIB I'd like to sell off, what'll you give me for it?'. Mr. O says, '$350.' Mr. RV says, '<Hudson voice> Are you $%^&ing crazy <Hudson voice>? I want $450, you're selling the same gun for $475.'

Two options for Mr. O.
1. Buy gun S from Mr. D for $350, sell for $475. => $125 for bills, labor, profit.
2. Buy gun S From Mr RV for $450, sell for $475. => $25 for bills, labor, (essentially) no profit.

Which would you choose?
 
Ha ha. Rock Jock, give it up. The numbers are running against ya! You go into business running it like you say they should treat you and you will soon join the ranks of the failed small businesses of America. :eek: As Keith said, the other guy would have probably bought a gun the dealer had in stock. 2 sales = 2 profits. :p
 
rock jock,

I'll side of you whining when you have the balls to:

1. Find a retail location
2. Purchase necessary displays counters and shelves.
3. Obtain the necessary local and state permits.
4. Obtain your FFL.
5. OBTAIN SUFFICIENT INVENTORY WITH YOUR MONEY OR CREDIT (over $20,000)
6. Sit and watch every single person touch their grubby hands and whine about how CDNN, J&G, Cheaper than Dirt, Shotgun News, has it cheaper than you and smile while they purchase nothing.
7. Then pay your rent/mortgage, lights, gas, water, estimated taxes, inventory, interest, etc and see your bank account go downward because you made $25 on a $479 gun.

I'm tired of all the people complaining about gun stores ripping them off. If these people were to buy an accounting book and read it, maybe they will learn instead of complaining. BTEW guns are a luxury item, not a necessity. Look at how many gun stores compared to everything else in your locality. That should indicate how much the market will bear.

Kenneth Lew
 
I'm tired of all the people complaining about gun stores ripping them off. If these people were to buy an accounting book and read it, m+aybe they will learn instead of complaining.
First, no one ripped me off. I did not accept their offer. They are free to offer me anything they want. I am free to refuse to do business there. Second, I understand accounting and business very well. I also understand that there are two ways to make a profit - either sell a few items at a high markup or sell a lot at a lower markup. This particular gunshop obviously chooses to do the former. However, the few highly successful gun shops I have been to follow the Wal-Mart approach.
 
rock jock,

I feel your pain. Unfortunately the fact of the matter is we are talking about **2 totally separate transactions** here. Not one, as you insist. Its the same when purchasing a new car and trading in an old one.

Deal 1. What is a fair price for the gun shop owner to give you for your basic model Springfield. While I personally believe $350 is about $20-40 less than you should be getting, it is reasonable considering the wholesale price on that new gun is about $350. To re state what has already been said. Why should a dealer pay more for a gun than he can get that same gun for at his wholesale price. He wouldn't, and quite frankly if I was a dealer I wouldn't either. I know you don't like that answer but its a fact of doing business. It is not realistic to tie these 2 deals together. Each has to be looked at in its own light.

Deal 2. What is a fair cash price to sell the loaded Springfield for?? You said its sticker price is $649. While I don't know for sure, I would guestimate that the wholesale price on that gun is $499-$529. Lets say for the sake of arguments its $529. What would be a fair cash sale for that gun? Considering dealer shipping costs at $15 that brings the cost to the dealer of having that gun sit on his shelf at $544. Now what is a fair profit on $544. Some folks will say that 10% is fair. I’ve talked to dealers who will absolutely NOT even consider taking a gun in on trade or selling a gun that they can not make at lease $75 profit on. I believe considering everything a 20% profit to the dealer is fair.

20% of $544 is $108.80 so that brings us up to $652.80. The gun is already stickered for slightly less than that. So that seems to re confirm to me at least the previous numbers I cited. I’m guessing that the loaded Springfield is tagged at about 20% over the dealers actual cost and he doesn’t have much room to work with you on a cash price on that gun. However many dealers will even cut into a 20% profit margin to turn over inventory.

I know that it can be very frustrating trying to work deals with gun shops. I only rarely get what I believe I should out of used guns I’m trading in on other guns. But the fact is that with shop overhead, utilities, insurance, employees, license costs, and what have you, gun shops in general and gun shop owners specifically don’t make a heck of a lot of money. They are a business and if they want to stay in business they have to look at the practical side (bottom dollar) of each and every gun they purchase and sell.

Regards,
Rob
 
How much profit do they need? [This is partly a complaint and partly a real question, because I don't have any experience running a business]
If he paid the guy $390 and sold it for $450, that's a little over 15%. If he paid $350 wholesale for the other one in the case and marked it $479, that's 37% profit! I like to support the indie gunshops instead of WalMart, but not if it's that much.
 
Cost of goods sold includes...
Cost paid to supplier.
Insurance
Rent/lease
Utilities
Labor paid
Advertising
etc etc.

Gross profit is one critter.
Net profit is a much smaller critter.

Net profit is difference tween price paid to supplier + cost of goods sold and the amount paid by the customer.

Sam
 
Seeing how I paid $399 for my Mil-Spec, I thought the offer was pretty good. Despite all the "mathmatical wizardry" being shown, you're not going to do better than that unless you sell it yourself.
 
OK, I'll concede that there are some good points made. I still think the offer was too low and they would have benefitted from bumping it up another $50-60. I may return in another few weeks to see if they have sold the loaded version (not to buy it, just out of curiousity.



Valkman,

Are you sure we're talking the same gun? I know the WWII version of the Mil-Spec is a lot less. I scoured the 'net for the one I have and the best price I saw was around $460.
 
If you think gunshops are bad take your gun to a pawnshop with an FFL.

Your NIB $479 gun will turn into about $120 whether you sell it or pawn it.

Even in trade for another gun you would be lucky to get $200.

The only time I sell things to gunshops is if I acquired the item at a ridiculously low price and the gun is worthless to me or the shop has an item I'm willing to trade for. Sometimes I can turn my gun into a bartering tool to save cash on hand.

Gunshops always come out well ahead on every transaction or they fail.


I have also seen gunshops that have ridiculous prices and will not haggle.
Ruger P90 for $550
Used commerical Hipower for $899
Beat up police positive for $399

Sometimes these folks stay in business because of customers that do not know any better. They can stay open selling 4 overpriced guns per day.

There has to be a happy medium for retail firearm sales and fortunately for us 80% of the gun dealers out there realize this.

The best deal you get at a gunshop is free advice, personal service and hopefully someone who will take care of you when you are unhappy with a purchase.
 
It might be instructive to look at this from a pure accounting standpoint. There are two separate transactions here (the trade in and the purchase of the new gun) and it's probably best to look at them as such.

rock jock, basically you are negotiating the purchase of a pistol that costs $649. You wish to purchase the pistol with a different pistol (your trade in) and an unspecified amount of cash. The gun shop has an identical pistol to your trade in that they are carrying for $479.

The regular joe would look at that transaction and conclude that his trade in is "worth" $479, so he would simply hand them the pistol and $170, and walk out with a new pistol, with everyone happy. But we are dealing with the twisty world of retail accounting, where, albeit madness exists, it often has a method to it.

Let's look at how the gun store records the purchase of regular inventory (I'll ignore LIFO and FIFO for now so as not to complicate the issue, and just show it as a regular low-volume-type transaction.). The store buys a mil-spec from their supplier. The credit is to cash and the debit is to inventory. In other words, the carrying cost is the purchase price. Now let's look at a purchase. The debit is to cash and the credit is split...one portion zeroes out the inventory entry (carrying cost) and the remaining credit goes to Revenue.

Now let's look at your transaction. First, the store would have to carry your trade in at purchase price (that's not me, that's GAAP) in some manner. He thus has to true it up between the difference of the carrying cost of the other pistol in inventory and what he's giving you for it. Let's assume the carrying price (ie inventory value) of this pistol is normally $350. Since it's clear you were asking more for the pistol than the carrying price of the one already in inventory, the store would have had to eat the remainder in some kind of contra-asset account which is the equivalent of goodwill (which is amortized out over time as an expense on the income statement, as it's not a real asset...were I the store's accountant I'd insist on expensing it all immediately due to the nature of retail.). The entry thus becomes a credit to "Due To rock jock" for $479, a debit to inventory for $350 and an expense item for $129.

Now the gun store has an inventory item they MUST sell at $479 in order to break even. Assume they find such a buyer. The entry becomes a debit to cash for $479 and two credits: one to inventory for $350 and one to revenue for $129. However, that revenue entry is offset by the expense of the earlier initial trade, so there really is no profit in the deal.

The second part of the transaction becomes a little more convoluted. You have a credit with the gun dealer for $479. You want a $649 pistol. So you give him $170 and walk out with your pistol. The dealer would have to record the entry as a debit to cash for $170, a debit to "Due to Rock Jock" for $479, and a credit to inventory for the carrying cost of the pistol, with the remainder going to revenue. The dealer just turned a profit, right? Well, no because we're forgetting about the expense the dealer incurred in order to make the deal...$129. In other words, it cost the dealer $129 to sell the pistol to you, whereas if someone walked in off the street and bought it with cash they wouldn't have incurred any extraordinary expense in the deal. Now the dealer is assuming the risk that they could sell that pistol at $479. Is this a risk the dealer wants to take? I don't know anything about the pistol in question, but it seems to me that in retail there is very little that's guaranteed. Further, the profit margin of the pistol already in inventory may have a little (or a lot of) wiggle room built in that allows the store some flexibility in pricing...flexibility that's lost in the pistol they took in trade.

So how can they erase that expense? By offering you the carrying cost of the pistol they already have in inventory. There is still risk that they won't sell the pistol, but the risk is the same that they normally incur, and there isn't any extraordinary expense associated with that risk.

I know this is a long post and I'm probably being unnecessarily complicated, but the concept is that a trade in, unless made at carrying cost, will result in an expense to the dealer in the short term. Whether that expense is recouped eventually is the risk the dealer must be willing to make. rock jock, in your case the dealer didn't want to take that risk.

Goalie

(edited to add): rock jock, when you visit the store, it would be more revealing if the store sold the pistol they had that was comparable to yours, since that 's the transaction on which everything else hinges. If they sold the $479 pistol then that tells you they would have been able to sell your trade in and (assuming a little here) erase that expense.
 
While I understand your frustration, having been there before, you are well advised, along with others, to re-read the folks trying to explain the dealer's position.

They are correct, and their points transfer well to other areas of capitalism.
 
Valkman,

Are you sure we're talking the same gun? I know the WWII version of the Mil-Spec is a lot less. I scoured the 'net for the one I have and the best price I saw was around $460.

Yea, I saw one at a gun show here for $510 then found a place called Wild Sports had it in their ad for a while at $399 so I grabbed one. The WW2 model wasn't out yet, I don't think. Either way, it's spent most of the time since at back at SA - guess it likes it's home!:p
 
RockJock, in all the variants of the scenario you presented, an implied assumption on your part is that a customer would come along VERY SHORTLY after said dealer took your "new/used" pistol in on trade, and would immediately snap it up from said dealer, thus netting the dealer a quick profit of $29, or thereabouts.

Let's change the scenario slightly--to one where, instead of the customer coming along quickly, the dealer ends up displaying this new-gotten merchandise for MONTHS, instead of a few days or weeks.

The cost of carrying that item of inventory is not insignificant, I think we all agree.

Now, given that carrying cost, which pistol is the dealer more interested in carrying:

1. the one he just bought from you, for $29 under retail, or
2. the one he buys from his distributor, for $75-100 under retail.

It does not take a rocket scientist to see that buying your "new/used" pistol at $29 under his retail price forces the dealer to assume a larger risk in carrying costs over what buying that same pistol from the distributor would entail.
 
To look at this even handedly, you need to realize whatever the dealer allowed you on the trade ($350-450) was money he had sunk in the pistol. In other words it was money he had tied up that could have been in the bank drawing interest or used to buy something else to sell. To determine the cost to carry the pistol would entail how much overhead was incurred during the time it sat there until it sold. Salaries, rent, advertising, FFL, utilities, insurance, etc. all these and more would have to be spread evenly over the dealer's stock for a given period. As CR Sam said, the gross profit of say $129 sounds enticing but when the net profit of maybe $25 is actually netted it ain't so great. See why the dealer is not going to pay you $29 less than retail?
 
Why I hate most gun shops:

At Shenandoah Sports in Winchester, this past weekend: $540 for a new Glock 27, NO night sights, plus tax :what:


Uh, guys, I do want to support my local gun sellers, but sheesh, I'm not gonna grab my ankles for you.....I'll take the Internet, thanks. I can get a Glock 27, with night sights, for a little over $500 online.
 
Rock Jock, I am afraid that you are the one who is challenged in the area of math skills, specifically math skills related buying and selling new and used low profit items such as firearms.

First of all, don't be pissed because the gun shop would not give you the amount of money you wanted for a gun you didn't want. You have absolutely no concept as to how that gun shop perceives that very product which you noted they had for sale for $479. That particular model maybe something of a dog seller for them, meaning they don't move fast and spend a lot of time on the shelf.

You also don't know just how many of those guns they had in stock and what they paid for them. Why would they pay you $450 for a gun they get for $425? Now that would be a mathematically-challenged decision. More over, as noted, your gun would have to be sold as used and would not get full price.

You noted that the gun shop would get 100% of the profit on the other gun. Just how much profit were they making? Do you know? It will likely be between 5 and 15% is all. So they are going to get 100% of the profit for that sale? Nope. That assumes that they are going to get at least the $450 out of the sale of your gun, the trade in value you desire. If they don't get at least that amount, then they will NOT be getting 100% of the profit. On top of that, you are assuming that they profit on the sale to you is immediately beneficial to them. It isn't. They won't realize profit until your gun sells, if and when it sells.

In your scenario, for the gunshop to get that mythical 100% profit on the gun you trade and pay cash for, what you are really failing to realize is that they are going to be doing triple the work for that profit. First is the purchase of your gun and all the FFL crap that goes with it and the risk that the gun they purchase from you is stolen. While you know it isn't stolen, they don't. Having receipts isn't definitive either. They assume risk on the deal from you as the seller and as a seller they don't know. You aren't their wholesaler. Next, they selll you the gun you want and go through all the paperwork crap with that. And finally, they have to sell the used gun you traded in. Without your transactions, they are still looking to make 100% of the profit on the gun they have for sale that you want and will likely get it in just one single transaction, not 3. Because of the multiple transactions, time, overhead, and as of yet unrealized profit, what you are talking about is NOT a good deal for the shop.

As a closing comment, remember it is YOU that took a gun into the shop, a gun that you did not want, and offered it up for sale. You seem incredulous that the gun shop is not letting you do such a big favor for them since you have nothing but their interests at heart and so you can't understand why they won't give you what you want. The explanation is simply and blatant and the funny thing is that you can't see it. You don't have the gun shop's interests at heart. You aren't mad because they won't let you make them 100% profit on a sale (like that was going to happen). You are mad because you could not unload the gun you didn't want at the price you wanted.

As the seller, you have no reason to be upset that they did not give you what you wanted when you were the one who walked into their store and tried to unload the unwanted gun on them. They offered you what they thought was proper given their own circumstances which you know nothing about. If you didn't like the offer, then you say "Thanks anyway." and continue your door-to-door gunshop selling at the next store.
 
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