Another suicide with a gun, How can I defend guns now?(serious responces please)

[expvideo]

If they want to blame the gun, then for the time being let them. This is definitely not the time to be arguing it, but more importantly, it is better that they blame the gun than blame themselves. Try to be supportive of your family and put the gun issue on the back burner for a while. When everyone has finished grieving, then it may be a topic of conversation, but not until then.

 

[huntsman]

I had a friend who didn’t like guns, wouldn't have anything to do with them.

But he used one to end his life; it was just a means to an end. Did he use a gun because it was the most efficient? Who knows but I do know it wasn't the most convenient way for him to do it.

 

[ArmedBear]

But then again, I see ODs all the time. No one ever blames the pills.

Sure they do. You know that stupid "War on Drugs" thing?

I've never heard it called. "The War on Stupid A******s Who OD."

 

[billwiese]

I lost a very good friend to suicide last year. He was a shooting buddy, stickler for gun safety, NRA member, politically active, etc.

[His depression-related meds weren't working as well as he'd let on, he didn't want meds with weird side-effects, and a relatively minor car accident with his Porsche in a remote area in UT/CO border area put him over the edge. I had had some concerns when I found out about this several years ago, but his repeated assurances and external demeanor gave me the idea it was more "the blues" or "just tired of dealing with idiots at work" and not deep despair.)

His family understood his firearms hobby and that many of his friends were into shooting & gun politics - and that this little 'community' may, in fact, have let him stick around a little longer.

His family is still into firearms were) and his sister is getting a CCW. They've kept some of his firearms in the family too - for use, not display. They understood a bad decision/ personal issue is not restrictive on others' freedoms, and don't hold his shooting buddies "at fault" in any way. I lost a friend but made some new ones after I met his family.

RIP, Parag.


Bill Wiese
San Jose

 

[bigwinchesterfan]

Did people commit suicide before guns were invented? Is a gun by its self a matter of suicide? Are all suicides commited with guns?

 

[czarjl]

Give her the time and support she need, now is not the time to push the issue.

When the time is right (or at least much better) start the process over again (slowly). Any type of in your face or preachy approach will most likely backfire.
My wife came from an “anti-gun” family but over time I have won her over to the fun that shooting can be (she like reactive targets, balloons and clay birds). It is not a fast process by any means

 

[benEzra]

The U.S. suicide rate is LOWER than that of the United Kingdom, Canada, and Japan. And that is despite the fact that Americans work the longest hours with the least time off of any First World nation, have some of the poorest access to mental health care, etc.

If our suicide rate changed so that it was the same as that of Canada or the UK, it would have to go up, not down. People who really want to kill themselves can and do so, even in the complete absence of firearms.

 

[Officers'Wife]

Mainly concentrate on the people not the objects. Be supportive of her loss and if you must mention the incident just say it's sad the friend didn't seek help with his problem. Always present the front that it was the friends' feeling of hopelessness that caused the suicide. Counter emotion with emotion... distaste of firearms with the lack of willingness to seek help with emotional problems. Direct the emotions to the root cause- that feeling of hopelessness- rather than the method those feelings drove the friend to use. Not in our stars but in ourselves and all that Shakespeare sort of thing.

 

[ArmedBear]

despite the fact that Americans work the longest hours with the least time off of any First World nation, have some of the poorest access to mental health care, etc.

Maybe having lots of time off but little opportunity to achieve professional goals, and lots of free time with shrinks, don't add up to a low suicide rate.

Seems like the suicide rate is even lower where people have even less time to ponder the emptiness of it all, where death is always a real threat, and they have to work their butts off just to survive.

 

[joker4096]

guns don't kill people, people kill people, i'm sure you've heard that many many times

 

[JImbothefiveth]

Like others said, now is not the time to discuss this. You might not ever want to discuss this with them.

It's like saying banning thermometers will prevent people from having fever..

I don't think that's a good analogy. The thermometer just detects when something happens.

 

[ls0n3]

well ideally, they will get over it with time.

Even if the most unfortunate event occurred, where you had to use your firearm to save one of their lives, it still might not be enough to change their minds about guns.

They may just have too deep of an emotional injury to ever get over it.

Let them bring it up to you, and just keep going n with what you like to do. If they/she is interested they will let you know.

 

[KeithET]

The issue here is the people in question already have a inherent dislike of guns and view them as evil. That view is only reinforced by the suicide of a loved one. Its like the suicide would not of happened if it were not for the gun. Forget about the issues that caused the suicide or the extreme possibility that without a gun they would have found another way to do it. Its the guns fault pure and simple! Just how do you argue with that perspective?

Sorry for not being helpful on how to approach this I just can't see any way around the bias presented. You could try and present this info to them and try to convince them that it was not the fault of the gun. I just don't think that will work. Its way to emotional for them now.

KeithET

 

[CoRoMo]

I honestly wouldn't and don't try to alter the beliefs of my extended family members. The golden rule; I don't want them trying to alter my beliefs either. There's no point to it.

My own household is different. I expect my family to operate logically rather than emotively. And I'm blessed that they do so more often than not.

 

[turnyourback]

as an aside...

Japan doesn't have the highest suicide rate in the world, Lithuania does.

 

[DCortez]

I know who and who not to talk money, religion, politics, and guns with. Bite your tongue if need be and remember ... all the freedom they want is outside your property line.;

 

[HeavenlySword]

don't argue or fight unless you hear guns attacked.

Then you must argue.

Wait a few months before asking her to go shooting again.

 

[TCB in TN]

Suicide is a tough issue to deal with. My maternal grandfather ended his life when the doctors told him they were going to take his leg off. He decided that death was better than the helplessness he thought he would feel. My mom, and her brothers understood that it was his decision not the gun that was responsible, and so it was never an issue. Some people are not that reasonable and react differently. It is a tough topic one that is by its very nature an emotional one, and as such it is going to be a tough one to change someone's mind on.

 

[wep45]

there is no need for you to continue the gun talk with your family........if you like guns, fine.......do your thing....if others want to be interested in guns.... they will

 

[seale]

If you're afraid of the issue then the person you're speaking with will sense it. They will sense that your fear is resulting from YOU linking the suicide to firearms (when they are actually two entirely different subjects).

You seem all stressed out about converting this woman who happens to be your wife. I wish guys would stop this. Guys act like converting women to being pro gun is somehow important. If a woman is curious then you educate her but having conversion of women as a goal is just going to stress you out.

Since she is your wife, you obviously can have more influence than most people, but that doesn't count for spit if she isn't interested. It's like if she was trying to convert you to loving to watch "the View." Imagine if SHE approached that like you are approaching this. You would probably be annoyed at best and you would probably be less "convertable."

HERE IS YOUR SOLUTION: enjoy shooting, enjoy guns, and let her see your good example of enjoying firearms. Women tend to gravitate to wherever the fun is. If you look like you're having fun then she MIGHT become interested in guns. Maybe. But if she doesn't, so what. You have fun with guns no matter what she does or thinks.

How can I make any pro gun arguement now after these two very hurtful events.

That is 100% the wrong approach. Approaching women with a "debate" mentality just goes nowhere and causes trouble. Stop trying to combine the men's world with her world. They're supposed to be separate but Americans have forgotten that. If she expresses interest someday then great, but you've got the WRONG mindset.

 

[willbrink]

If he had driven his car off a cliff, would she be anti car?

You use the same position/argument as for all things regarding guns: you don't blame tools for human actions. People kill themselves, people kill each other. They use various tools/methods to achieve that end.

 

[DeathByCactus]

First, my condolences.

Second, if it wasn't with a gun it would have been with Tylenol, bridge, building, whatever. Firearms are tools, they can be a gift or they can be a nightmare depending on their use. Suicides are troubled people, if they really want to go, they will. If there was not a firearm to use would he still be alive? Possibly, but for how much longer. There is still a very high chance no one would get any new information to decipher what he was going to do regardless.

Safes, trigger locks, protective measures are the best one can get to protecting their firearms from being used in nasty situations. In all honesty, I wouldn't try to push the firearms are still good point. Just go about your business and when it is brought up deal with it then from a logical perspective that suicides may or may not try to find help, if they don't and can't find one tool, they will use another.

When someone commits suicide, it leaves guilt and bad emotions on the surrounding people. They will look for things to blame, including themselves, because of the persons selfish action (Sorry if this offends you, but, it is selfish to not take into consideration family and friends; especially if that person did not reach out to them). It will be rough to try and force the issue and I urge you not to push anything. If you mention you are going shooting and she starts with the firearms are bad, be careful what you say but speak your points.

 

[Rush]

Condolences on the death of your friend.

My advice would be to continue your shooting as normal, and invite her along just as if this incident had not happened. Don't bring up a discussion, just say "I'm going shooting, want to come along?" If she starts some guns-are-evil-look-what-just-happened rant, I would respond with a very short, but very pointed statement, upholding the fact that for you, guns are GOOD, and not this incident nor any other is ever going to stop you from exercising your God-given rights period, end of discussion. Don't get sucked into a debate with her over it; there is no debate. Let her know you'd love her to join you if and when she is ready.

Do not walk on eggshells over this issue; if you're in the habit of cleaning a table full of guns on Sunday night, continue whipping out all the guns on Sunday night. Do not give your wife any idea that some other person misusing guns has ANY power over you or your right to stay practiced and proficient. When we cater to people's irrational squeamishness and emotionalism when something like this happens, we give the gun grabbers power.

 

[Rush]

Deathbycactus, it happened to you too?

 

[seale]

It's not your browser "rush" (and Deathbycactus) thehighroad's server is going nuts today. Maybe Oleg and Derek are both plugged in and going at it like Neo and Smith