Another "what gun next" thread

[chaim]

Some background:
-I am enthusiastic about chances for a decent CCW law in MD thanks to the efforts of many here. It may not happen this year, but I think within a few years out we may actually have a decent CCW law like the rest of the country.

I also spend a lot of time in PA where soon I'll be able to legally carry.

Thus, I am interested in an auto suitable for carry. It probably won't be used often for that as I will likely use a revolver most of the time and until MD goes CCW I will only carry when I'm in PA once or twice a month, but I want a decent auto or two for carry.

-I don't want a S&W style decocker. I like 1911s and I want to keep things simple, so for defensive guns they must either have a 1911 style safety or they must be DAO (or DA w/ decocker only is acceptable).

-I am a big fan of 9mm and .45acp. 9mm is an effective self-defense round or a cheap practice round depending upon your ammo selection, .45acp takes less thought to pick your defensive ammo because it already starts with a bigger hole but is much more expensive to practice with. .40S&W is starting to grow on me again so I won't rule it out (it has basically the same negatives and positives as the .45acp). Thus caliber is basically a "6 of one, half dozen of the other" situation for me so long as it is one of these three (in autos).

-I don't like Glocks very much. I will never buy a Glock.

-I intend to carry IWB, most of the time probably IWB with a tucked dress shirt as the cover.

-I'd like to stay in the $400-550 range as much as possible, but for the right gun I may go over a bit.

So keeping these in mind here is my list, I want your imput (if you add guns not on my list keep in mind the above conditions):

-CZ P01:
Pros- I love CZ, it has CZ quality, it is 25 oz so it is a good carry weight that will also give good control. I know all about the design and how well tested this gun was, it may be the best CZ ever.
Cons- I hate the full length frame and the accessory rail added to the otherwise (near perfect) CZ 75 basic lines. Being a double stack makes for a fairly wide grip for IWB tucked.

-CZ PCR:
Pros- 24oz 9mm. It is a CZ. I've always liked the CZ PCR and would love one, fits my hand and points just about perfectly.
Cons- Not much I can think of. Before the ban ended the 13 round high-caps for the compact CZs were hard to come by, I don't know if that is still the case. The double stack mag makes for a fairly wide grip for IWB tucked.

-CZ RAMI:
Pros- 25oz compact CZ avail in both 9mm and .40S&W. CZ quality.
Cons- I'm not sure if it is even available in MD, I'm not sure if I like it or not.

-CZ 100.
Pros- CZ quality, compact and thin polymer 9mm or .40S&W, only 24 oz. Probably the least expensive gun on my list (this new v. some of the others used and the used gun may be cheaper).
Cons- I'm not a big fan of obviously polymer guns and this one has a long and heavy trigger pull.

-Taurus PT 911 or 940.
Pros- This gun fits my hand and points as well as the PCR. I've wanted this gun longer than I've wanted the PCR. I don't think I've ever heard one negative about this gun from an actual owner. It may be the most underrated gun on the market. Easy to get high-caps now that the ban ended- Taurus is really working to get them out there (15 rounds of 9mm in a fairly compact package is nice). The price is right.
Cons-Only the 9mm is a high-cap, the .40 is a 10 rounder (I think), though this is only a problem if I don't go with the 9mm. Maybe weight, at 28oz it is on the heavy side for a compact. Being a double stack it is wide for IWB tucked.

-A used Taurus PT908.
Pros- See above minus the high-cap as it is an 8 round single stack, compact 9mm.
Cons- None except I can't get it new (it has been discontinued for a few years), and I've never seen it used around here so I'd have to buy online sight unseen (I've only done that with revolvers thus far, though I've never been disappointed).

-Taurus Millenium Pro series.
Pros- Great price! Decent quality (the troubles with the original Millenium series are long over). Overall decent guns, at good prices, and great size and weight for carry. Available in 9mm, .40S&W and .45acp.
Cons- Obviously polymer, ugly, heavy DAO trigger.

-Taurus 24/7
Pros- Everyone I've encountered who has one loves it. 17 rounds of 9mm (less in larger calibers). Reliable, accurate, fairly lightweight and narrow (due to the polymer) despite being essentially a full-size gun
Cons- Being full size the grip is a bit long for IWB tucked carry, it is polymer and it is ugly.

-SA XD
Pros- Great gun at a great price. Great selection of size and calibers. Accurate, reliable, I've shot a full-size when they first came out and know I like shooting them
Cons- Ugly, polymer

-Kahr P9 or P40
Pros- Not bad looking for polymer. Very lightweight, reliable and accurate. I have always liked Kahrs.
Cons- The only con for me on this is price

-Kahr PM9
Pros- Can fit in a pocket (around 16oz, and very small), very reliable, accurate, I love Kahrs. I'm probably getting one of these eventually as an occasional pocket carry gun (when a snub won't be there) and it could probably do double duty as a belt gun when not in the pocket.
Cons- The size may make practice less pleasant and accuracy less precise than with the larger guns. Price.

-Kahr K9 or K40.
Pros- Great gun, great looking gun. Accurate, reliable, good DAO trigger, I love these guns.
Cons- Price (since these have been out longer than the P series I may be able to find one used to somewhat alleviate this con), weight for the size is a bit more than it should be.

-3" or 4" 1911. I love 1911s. I have a Charles Daly full-size which has been great.
Pros- Single stack .45, a design I love. Some are quite accurate and reliable. In an alloy they are 24-28oz depending upon brand and exact model/size.
Cons- In my price range I'm only looking at the Daly which is only available in steel (at 32 oz for the 3" barrel it is quite heavy for the size). In alloy (I'd want a Kimber or SA likely) it is going to be a bit more than I can spend and will mean waiting quite a bit longer.

-Hi-Power. I'd either get a used FN or Browning or a new Charles Daly.
Pros- Full-size means better controllability and accuracy. At 32 oz it is pretty light for a full-size gun. It is probably the most narrow double stack available. It is known for accuracy and reliabilty. If I get the Daly the XS sights are pretty much ideal for defensive use. Depending on the brand, with aftermarket mags this can hold up to 17 rounds of 9mm.
Cons- Full-size means harder to conceal. It is 32oz so it is on the heavier side. I haven't checked, I'm not sure the Daly is even available here yet.

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I can't say which way I'm leaning. One day I'll be leaning one way, the next another.

The guns that are on the top of my list most often are the PCR, the PT911, the PT908, getting the PM 9 and having it pull double duty, and the Daly Hi-Power. If I could definately afford an alloy compact 1911 it would probably be the top gun on the list but I can't really afford the alloy guns right now, and the steel guns are just a tad on the heavy side for the size (unless I use my full-size 1911- but then 38oz may be heavy for all day).

Some other possibilities that are a bit less likely- a DAO S&W 3913, 908 or 910/915 (but if it comes as a traditional DA/SA it will be expensive once smithing costs to convert it are added in), a Ruger 345 (fairly small and light, due to the polymer, for a full-size .45), just getting another steel full-size 1911 (heavy), Taurus PT945 (a tad big and heavy at 29 oz, not quite full-size, not quite compact), another CZ 40 (I miss mine- though I sold it for being not quite full-size, not quite compact and thus not quite what I wanted it to be), or maybe giving up on an auto for this role and just getting another revolver (probably another 3" K-frame, maybe a Taurus Tracker in .45LC or .45ACP and having it cut to 3").

I'd love to hear your imput.

 

[Tony Mig]

If I was in your shoes, I'd go with either a sub-compact, or compact 1911 single stack in .45 ACP. Thin, easy to conceal and comfortable in an IWB holster. Big bullet = big hole so the limited rounds shouldn't be an issue as long as you practice with it. There's plenty of choices, modifications, and spare parts that will be around for years to come.
Kimber, Springfield, Les Bear, Charles Daily, STI are all good choices, though I'd lean towards Springfield due to their outstanding customer service, and you can get a compact Mil-Spec pretty cheap.

Good luck on the passing of your CCW law, I wish I could find a grass roots organization here in Jersey that's pushing for it, I'd send them money, but as yet I don't know of any......

 

[Pilot]

You list some very nice pistols. I have a CZ PCR and love it. Hi-cap mags are readily available for them, they are the same as the standard CZ compact mags. That being said, I also lust after a Colt Lightweight Commander XSE, but you won't find one for $500. They seem to be in the $800 - $900 range. My primary carry is an HK P7 PSP which is not on your list but should be. The 8+1 capacity doesn't bother me. Nine rounds is enough and extra mags are slim and easily carried. Good condition used ones are around now for $700 or so which is a good deal for these guns. All of the above are very good range and carry guns. They are all accurate, fun and easy to shoot, but also carry well.

Almost forgot, can't go wrong with a BHP either. But I'd stick wth a Browning or FN (same guns, different markings) and forget the CD or other clones.

 

[Seraph]

My top choice would be a full size, steel framed 1911, in .45 ACP. For IWB carry, I would go with a 4" (or 4.25") version, but still with a steel frame. For 9mm or .40 S&W, I'd go CZ 75B or BHP, or a variant of one of these. I really like the CZ, and there is a nice, steel framed, compact version that would make a perfect IWB gun, IMO (and I think I read they just introduced the .40 version of this?). Hi-Power is very nice, but there is no compact version, unless you go with the Argentine FM Detective.

 

[wally]

In your shoes I might wait a bit and look at the new Kahr P45.


In order of preference, what I carry is:

Kimber Ultra Carry .45ACP with 230gr Hydrashoks and CTC laser grips.
Kahr PM40 with night sights, .40 S&W with 180 gr Golden Sabers.
S&W SC360 Scandium .357 mag with 158 gr Hydrashoks and CTC laser grips.
Kel-Tec P3AT .380ACP with 102 gr Golden Sabers.

What I've actually carried by frequency the past six months (we had no real winter):

S&W SC360
Kahr PM40
Kel-Tec P3AT
Kimber Ultra Carry.

 

[GreenFurniture]

If it were me I would opt for the Kimber Pro Carry II and second would be the XD-9, third the CZ PO1.

 

[greg531mi]

I would go for something smaller, a 9mm Rohrbaugh, nice but a little pricey, or try to find a Colt Mustang in 380.....CDNN has a nice FN 9mm Compact, that I was drolling over...not much into Tuperware either I guess...
What I would reconmend is to try different ways of carry, and go with the one that suits you....Holsters are inexpensive, an most of us have a couple of drawers full of them that didn't work for them....
After our law came in effect here in Michigan, almost everyone was carrying a 1911, IWB, then it got to be summer, and many didn't carry that big ol pistol anymore in hot T-shirt weather... Remember the old saying, to go to a gun fight, bring a gun!!!
I carry front pocket, can't stand something sticking in my fat roll, (I know my personal problem, :banghead: ok! ) I put my wallet in my back pocket, keys in left front and Colt 380 in right front all year long, and know where to reach for each one.
IWB carry is not for every one, and for front or rear pocket carry, you got to have a smaller pistol.
There are the 45 fans, the 9mm fans, the 380, 32, wheelguns, etc...full size, compact, or pocket size, it depends what you are confortable with, but with the proper shot placement, they will all do the job, the best thing to do, is to practice, practice, practice.....

 

[chaim]

I'd lean towards Springfield due to their outstanding customer service, and you can get a compact Mil-Spec pretty cheap.

I didn't think about that, the SA Mil-Spec compact comes in right around the top of my price range (in MD the SA Mil-Spec seems to run between $550-600). The only problem is, like the Daly, it is only steel and 32 oz for a 3" barrel gun seems a bit heavy, and might be a bit heavy after carrying all day (now I only carry around the house so I have not carried all day yet). But then, I do love 1911s.

BTW- where in Jersey are you? I'm currently dating a woman in Passaic, and there is a chance I may move there next year if I get a job I've applied for in NYC (in which case I can kiss CCW goodbye except when I'm in PA, but that is often).

I have a CZ PCR and love it. Hi-cap mags are readily available for them, they are the same as the standard CZ compact mags...My primary carry is an HK P7 PSP which is not on your list but should be.

Before the ban ended the 13 round compact hi-caps were hard to find on CZ. Have they ramped up production to meet the change in laws? Otherwise, I guess carrying a 10 rounder with a full sized 15 round backup is ok (as a backup mag having the mag stick out of the grip a ways isn't such a big deal). On the HK P7, I do like that gun but for me it is a bit expensive (used it may be a possibility if I wait longer) and it may be heavier than I want. On the weight I am at a disadvantage since I haven't been able to carry all day, and thus I don't know what truly is too heavy for me for a carry gun (I can only guess based on what I see carrying around the house a few hours at a time).

For 9mm or .40 S&W, I'd go CZ 75B or BHP, or a variant of one of these. I really like the CZ, and there is a nice, steel framed, compact version that would make a perfect IWB gun, IMO (and I think I read they just introduced the .40 version of this?). Hi-Power is very nice, but there is no compact version, unless you go with the Argentine FM Detective.

I love my CZ75B, it is very accurate, reliable, and ergonomic. It is also a tad wide and long in the grip for how I'd like to carry most of the time (IWB tucked, though untucked it would be fine). I didn't think about the steel compact, though again like many of the other options it seems a little heavy for its size. I didn't think about the FM HP compact version, though for my 1st HP I'll probably want something full-size (more traditional- about as far as I want to go is the XS sights on the Daly).

In your shoes I might wait a bit and look at the new Kahr P45.

True, once that comes out, depending upon price, it may make me rethink my choices. Some wait is a given. There are a couple uncertainties right now so I can't buy right away regardless, it is just a question of how long I'm waiting. Financially, I need to finish paying off some old bills first so my tax return is going to that, not a gun. Job wise, I am looking for something new. Additionally, I am applying for teaching jobs next year, since I'm not certified at this point my options are limited. I'm applying for a NYC teaching job, for other city jobs NYC requires you live in the city, I don't know about teaching. So, I have to wait at least until I know where I'll be next year- if I get one of the other teaching jobs, or if I get NYC only and they do allow you to live outside the city I'll be fine to move ahead on my gun purchase. However, if I only get NYC and NYC does require their teachers live in the city, I'll need to sell all my guns, not buy any, since handgun permits there seem near impossible to get (permits to own, not carry) and even if I do get one it may take quite a bit of time. Thus, until I know if any of the school districts I've applied for have accepted me, and until I know which ones, I need to wait anyway. Still, that may not be until the .45 comes out, and I still may not want to wait as long as it will take for me to have the money for the Kahr .45.

Wally, on your other choices it sounds like you think alot like me. I have a Taurus 85CL for pocket and belt carry and will likely replace it with an alloy (aluminum or titanium) .38 snub for pocket use (I wouldn't want the Sc .357 though). I love 1911s and eventually (with the price, probably 2-4 years) will likely have a nice 3" or 4" alloy 1911. I'm definately decided on a PM9 (I think the PM40 may be too much in this small and light a package, though I am open to convincing) as a pocket gun eventually- though realistically, with the price it is probably still a couple years off.

I would go for something smaller, a 9mm Rohrbaugh, nice but a little pricey, or try to find a Colt Mustang in 380

I'm not interested in another .380 (unless I don't get a PM9, in which case the other pocket gun I want is an NAA and I'd consider a Kel-Tec). I just prefer 9mm (though I'm definately not one of those guys who badmouth .380- I often recommend the Bersa Thunder .380). As for the Rohrbaugh, the smallest 9mm I'm interested in is the Kahr PM series.

There are the 45 fans, the 9mm fans, the 380, 32, wheelguns, etc...full size, compact, or pocket size, it depends what you are confortable with, but with the proper shot placement, they will all do the job, the best thing to do, is to practice, practice, practice.....

Wiser words are seldom heard on a gun board.

 

[Northslope Nimrod]

Hard choices. Great list.

You've done your research! You're list is great! I own the CZ RAMI and a BHP and I am currently debating on either a 1911 or a PCR.
Very hard decision. If you don't have a 1911, then get one in a 45. If you don't have a BHP, then get one in 9mm. These two guns are must-haves. If you can only buy one then follow the instructions below:
If this gun is primarily for carry, then go with the PCR (narrower nose than the P-01). I love my RAMI, but I think you could carry the PCR just as easily. The RAMI, however, does allow for C&L, if you prefer that condition. If this gun is going to be used primarily for range purposes and only occasionally carried,(as your post suggests) then go with the 1911. (the 1911 trigger will be the best, after some work).

 

[chaim]

I own the CZ RAMI and a BHP and I am currently debating on either a 1911 or a PCR.
Very hard decision. If you don't have a 1911, then get one in a 45. If you don't have a BHP, then get one in 9mm. These two guns are must-haves. If you can only buy one then follow the instructions below:
If this gun is primarily for carry, then go with the PCR (narrower nose than the P-01). I love my RAMI, but I think you could carry the PCR just as easily. The RAMI, however, does allow for C&L, if you prefer that condition. If this gun is going to be used primarily for range purposes and only occasionally carried,(as your post suggests) then go with the 1911. (the 1911 trigger will be the best, after some work).

In your case, since you have a good carry gun in the RAMI I'd wait on the PCR and get the 1911 (it is a classic that everyone that even thinks they may want one really should get- even those who aren't sure if they like them should give them a try, I did and fell in love with the design). Not that you asked

As for the rest, on some days if I had the money and I knew where I could get one I'd be out the door to get the Daly HP (I really like the idea of those XS sights for a carry gun, it is a classic design, and I don't want to buy a gun from a French/Belgan manufacturer right now). However it is a full sized gun (though it is pretty light for a full size at ~32 oz). It is a little narrower in measurements than my CZ 75B and seems a lot narrower in the hand. Anyone out there own both a 1911 and a HP or a CZ75B and a HP and can compare and contrast them for carry for me?

As for the PCR, yes I do like the idea of C&L but I can deal with a DA first shot (the PCR is decocker only so it is ok). I do worry with the PCR and other CZ 75 based compact models that they may not be any narrower than the CZ 75 though- not bad but just a tad wide if I'm going to do tucked IWB. The slightly shorter grip should be perfect though.

I do love 1911s. I have a Daly which has been a great gun for me (in all but fit and finish it compares well with my best friend's nearly $1000 Kimber). However, 32oz for a steel 3" 1911 seems a bit heavy (I can only really afford the Daly or SA Mil-Spec), and the alloy is a little too much. Too bad too, about a year ago I thought I was about to buy an alloy Kimber Pro Carry II, but as they say "life happens". Depending upon other circumstances, and how long I wait though, if I have the money it is either the Pro Carry II or Ultra Carry II (or simlar SA) or the Kahr PM 9 for sure.

 

[Lobotomy Boy]

Unless you're really skinny, carrying cocked-and-locked IWB can be uncomfortable, which is a problem with 1911-style SA guns. I can tell you from experience that an exposed hammer as on the CZs can be very uncomfortable if you have the slightest pot belly.

Of the guns you've selected, I'd go with the XD9 subcompact for IWB carry. It's a great gun, from all accounts. That said, I'd go with the Glock 26 myself, just because it is smaller and more compact, but since you don't want Glock, that is beside the point. Personally, I've bought my last non-Glock autoloader.

 

[anapex]

Jeff, Sounds like you already have your carry gun in the Daly you have, as long as it has proven dead reliable. Since you've met me you know I'm anything but skinny and I carry my 5" Springfield 1911 IWB (sometimes tucked) everytime I'm back in PA. The spare magazine I usually carry IWB is what ends up bothering me the most, less surface area so it likes to dig in harder. A good belt and holster is the key.

 

[Berg01]

You might be able to find a NIB Sig P225 9mm for around $599.00 if you shop for it. I think it meets your criteria very nicely, and I would prefer it over most of the other guns mentioned.

 

[swjr72]

I'd have to vote for the CZ Own 2 CZ's and love both of them