Anti article on Guns in National Parks (needs your comments)...

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Grizfire

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I need your help.

The following link is to a Montana news article/opinion on carrying in national parks. The comments are being overrun by anti's. Please go there and submit your comments/arguments/clarifications.

http://www.missoulian.com/articles/2008/12/15/opinion/opinion38.txt#blogcomments


Guns, parks and confusion: Ruling to allow concealed weapons only adds to misunderstandings - Sunday, December 14, 2008


At about this same time last year, 47 U.S. senators - including Montana's Sens. Max Baucus and Jon Tester - signed a letter to U.S. Department of the Interior Secretary Dirk Kempthorne asking for a change in the law governing guns in national parks and wildlife refuges.

“We appeal to you on this matter in the interest of Second Amendment rights and consistency in firearms policy across federal public land management agencies,” the letter stated.

See, as the rule was written, visitors could bring guns through national parks so long as they were unloaded and not readily accessible. That rule placed an undue burden on visitors exercising their Second Amendment rights, the senators argued, and was too confusing besides.
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Last week, the senators got their wish when the Bush administration approved the rule change. Now, visitors wishing to carry weapons - and particularly, concealed weapons - through national parks and wildlife refuges will be expected to follow the rules of whichever state that park is located within.

This may indeed simplify things for park visitors familiar with the varying concealed carry regulations of all 50 states, or who don't intend to visit national parks outside their home state. For the rest of us, and especially for the park authorities charged with enforcing these new rules, the rule change will do exactly the opposite of what its supporters say it is intended to do.

That is, it makes the rules regarding weapons in national parks and wildlife refuges vastly more complex and confusing. See for yourself.

Old rule: No loaded guns in national parks.

New rule: Loaded, concealed weapons are allowed in national parks so long as the person carrying the concealed weapon has a concealed carry permit in the state in which that park exists, or if the permit is from a different state that recognizes the concealed carry regulations of that particular state, unless the park is located in more than one state - as Yellowstone National Park is - in which case the right to carry a loaded, concealed weapon depends on which part of the park you are standing in. And none of this applies to long guns, such as rifles and shotguns, which still fall under the old rule. Oh, and concealed weapons are not allowed in the three national parks located in Illinois and Wisconsin, which do not have concealed carry laws.

That's some simplification.

National parks have operated under the old rules since the 1930s. Visitors and park authorities alike are familiar with them. Now, park employees are faced with the task of educating the millions of folks who visit our national parks each year on the new rules - not only uninformed gun owners under the impression they may now carry loaded weapons in plain sight or without any sort of permit, but also the untold numbers of out-of-state and international visitors likely to be spooked by them.

“It's a total mess,” Will Hammerquist, of the National Parks Conservation Association, told a Missoulian reporter last week. “We've replaced one simple rule with this confusing quilt of rules, varying from park to park. It's an enforcement nightmare.”

That's a big part of why the rule change was not pushed or even supported by most of the poor folks who will be in charge of enforcing the new regulations. In fact, serious concerns have been raised by the National Park Service as well as several groups of park rangers, former park directors and retired employees, not to mention those park visitors who weighed in during a recent public comment period. It's worth noting that public comments opposing the rule change outnumbered those in support.

Visitors and rangers alike are worried that allowing people to carry loaded guns in national parks will increase violent crime and accidental shootings, not to mention the rate of poaching. The original ban against loaded guns arose all those years ago partially out of concern about the high incidence of poaching at Yellowstone.

We have made it clear before (editorial, Jan. 20) that we don't expect hordes of gun nuts to flood our parks, taking shots at every living thing. But the fact remains that this rule change will make it that much harder for park employees to identify and prevent a poacher or anyone else from doing harm until after the damage is done.

The National Rifle Association, which helped write the letter signed by our senators, argue that the rule is needed to protect our Second Amendment rights. But the right to carry a gun in national parks was never in question.

They also argue that the new rule is needed as a matter of safety, perhaps forgetting that the crime rate in our national parks is ridiculously low, even though such places see millions of visitors pass through. Similarly, the number of recent animal attacks can be counted on one hand.

Thanks to this rule change, national park authorities are worried about the safety of park visitors, wildlife and rangers while facing a massive education campaign, a regulatory nightmare and an enforcement impossibility.
 
“We've replaced one simple rule with this confusing quilt of rules, varying from park to park. It's an enforcement nightmare.”

Sounds like an argument for throwing out all the regulations and just allowing unrestricted concealed and open carry within national parks. Then no enforcement is necessary. :)
 
sweet, a whole slew of pro arguments were made!:)

Welcome to the forum Sako!
 
Also, the paper released a second opinion written by Gary Marbut, who is the president of the Montana Shooting Sports Association, author of “Gun Laws of Montana” and a self-defense firearm instructor. I'm glad they printed the other side of the controversy.

http://www.missoulian.com/articles/2008/12/15/opinion/guest/guest53.txt

But again, we have Kate, the clueless anti who thinks she knows everything.

new article below.

New gun rules for parks make visitors safer
Monday, Dec. 15, 2008
By GARY MARBUT


The Secretary of the Interior has finally and appropriately relaxed the rules about self-defense and guns in national parks. This is a good thing for people visiting parks.

In America, we are (as we should be) an independent and self-reliant people. We do not seek a government nanny to keep us on a short leash, all day, every day. Especially here in Montana, we expect to meet our own personal security needs, whatever those may be. We know that police cannot be there to defend us if we are attacked.

It makes no sense to have large chunks of Montana where people are not allowed to protect themselves, like other “gun-free zones” n actually “disarmed victim zones.” Did you ever see any signs in Glacier or Yellowstone national parks for the bears, lions and wolves saying “Do not attack tourists n it’s against regulations”? No? Well, those signs were never posted because large carnivores don’t read or obey signs, just like two-legged predators would ignore such signs.
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Some argue that national parks are statistically safer than other parts of the U.S. Maybe so, but that’s not much of a brag. Montana is also safer than other parts of the U.S., specifically because our people are allowed and prepared to defend themselves from predators, human and wild. See professor John Lott’s seminal book on this subject, “More Guns, Less Crime.” Relative rates of victimization notwithstanding, all of the people fatally attacked in national parks are dead n 100 percent. When seconds count, sometimes-armed park rangers are still minutes or hours away.

We do know from hard statistics that law-abiding citizens who legally carry concealed weapons are probably the safest demographic identifiable. They may fall off ladders or slip on ice as often as anyone else, but it is statistically rare for those citizens legally carrying firearms to have misadventures with firearms n neither illegal nor accidental misuse.

Those who persist in espousing the outdated theory that guns in civilian hands foster violent crime just plain need help. They cannot face reality. Perhaps they would be helped by a move to England or Australia, both of which suffer wildly escalating gun crime following full citizen disarmament.

It is now difficult for self-defense opponents to rationally make the case that only government employees should be trusted with guns, just as difficult as it would be to argue that only government employees should be allowed to write newspaper editorials or preach religious sermons.

Some may claim that national parks defaulting to state laws for firearm possession will be too confusing for travelers because it creates a patchwork of rules across the U.S. Please! If you start down that road, you must end up making the case that no state laws can be allowed about anything n only federal rules will work. That gets us to Real ID, federal speed limits, federal rules for parking violations and federal dog and cat licenses. No thanks! Montanans don’t want the lowest common denominator: federally imposed limitations on our freedoms that may be politically saleable in Chicago or Baltimore.

Besides, gun owners are used to sorting out and complying with state-by-state gun laws. We don’t find that nearly as confusing as some non-gun owners might imagine. It’s much easier to ascertain the laws of a few states to which a person may travel than to need to learn those laws and also a bunch of different rules that may apply in various enclaves within those states. That is a patchwork problem.

When the national wave of mandatory issue concealed weapon permit laws began sweeping the U.S. in the late 1980s, many “authorities” predicted widespread bloodshed would result. Those Chicken Little predictions turned out to be wrong n way wrong. The only noticeable result was the substantial reduction in violent, interpersonal crimes for everyone, not just for those with concealed weapon permits.

With the proof from this great social experiment now in the bag, it’s high time to give up the fear-mongering about guns and accept law abiding people protecting themselves in the heretofore disarmed victim zones such as national parks.

Gary Marbut of Missoula is president of the Montana Shooting Sports Association, author of “Gun Laws of Montana” and a self-defense firearm instructor.
 
I responded and will wait to see if it is posted. I have written to several other papers in Wyoming and Montana running similar articles, same dribble from the anti folks in each one. Would be nice if the Park service would come out with some stats showing that the per capita crime rate in National Parks far exceeds the national average.
 
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