Anti-Gun Politicians Attacking Law Abiding Citizens Instead Of Criminals. My solution

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Frolicious

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Pretty simple really. Instead of taking rights away from people you didn't have to worry about to begin with. Increase the penelty for law violators. Automatic 25 years in prison without porole. That should make criminals think twice before robbing a store right? Maybe that gang banger will reconcider before doing a drive by.
Your thoughts...
 
As with many those who are hell bent on doing a crime never believe they will get caught or are incapable of thinking farther than the end of their nose.

Arlington cemetery is full of soldiers who never thought it would happen to them or if they were really good, just figured their cause was just and today is as good as any to die.
 
That should make criminals think twice before robbing a store right?
I don't believe so, no. If they were to think at all, they'd be earning a legitimate living. Texas is more likely to put a murderer to death than any other state, yet murder hasn't become a thing of the past there.
 
The NRA already pushed for this and continues to push for bigger penalties for gun-related crimes.

Florida has "10-20-life," something that the NRA helped to get passed. http://www.dc.state.fl.us/oth/10-20-life/

Remember that really, while it helps, criminals aren't so concerned with getting caught. Even if they, a bleeding heart judge will probably let them go anyway.
 
Longer prison sentences do reduce violent crime. It's not so much the deterrent factor but the fact that it's hard to rob and kill from an 8x6 concrete cell. The vast majority of violent crimes are committed by a small number of people, so locking them up keeping them otherwise engaged.
 
I doubt it is that simple. Murder carry's either life in prison or the death penalty... does that stop people from committing murder? Not one bit. Humans are animals, and the animal kingdom is a violent place. The best way to stop these animals is to let natures law deal with them. Arm their prey... bullets are cheaper than prisons.
 
Agreed, I am all for ENFORCING the laws we currently have instead of making new laws that the criminals will disregard just as they did the old laws.

Second, gun control is not 100% about gun control. It has quite a bit to do with people control.
 
I personally am for removing the criminals lively hood, drop the failed 'war on drugs' put effective policies (check out Portugal) in place and use prisons for violent criminals, not some dude caught smoking a doobie.
 
It is not as simple as the OP thinks.


Upping the punishment significantly for crimes where nobody is seriously injured or killed to the same levels as those where someone is has the effect of giving criminals the all or nothing choice.
If they are going to commit robbery why stop there if the punishment is the same for robbery as it is for murder, and murder leaves fewer witnesses?


You have to give significantly lower punishments for the less severe crimes to retain deterrent for crossing certain lines.
So you must assign a punishment for the absolute worst of crimes, and everything else must then scale back from there.
You want to retain a system where the criminals realize there is additional boundaries they don't want to cross even after they have already crossed one.
They may have just committed a robbery and be fleeing, but should still be reluctant to kill for example.
Each such boundary reduces how many take it to the next step.
There is not much of a difference between 25+10, 50 years, 75 years, 900 years, etc to a criminal who already thinks short term. They all sound like "life" and likely would be life. So you have to start your average for the worst things lower.
Then each lesser thing must be less time than that, and the end result actually needs to be that criminals who do less horrendous things get out sooner.

The problem on the other end, starting minimum sentences too high is that once you actually send a criminal to prison for a long time they are far more likely to remain a criminal for life.
Bad choices among teenagers and young adults is high, but that rate quickly goes down as you get into older age brackets.
But that is not the case with a prisoner that has spent the last decade in prison surrounded by other scumbags. They may have grown out of it, but by living that lifestyle they are far less likely to.

England tried dishing out the harshest sentences for most crimes, and it didn't work. The tiny island of England had so many prisoners they populated new continents with them.
Various nations still operate that way. You can lose your hand in various Muslim nations for theft, be stoned to death for admitting to cheating (a crime) and similar punishments that were once popular in western culture.


You don't want to create more "all or nothing" criminals by having all of them facing life sentences the moment they cross the first line. That just increases the viciousness of your typical incident and their intention to get away at all costs.
Instead of giving up to face their 5-10, they kill and fight to the death to escape their 25+.
We see this with the three strikes law (and the third strike can be something relatively minor, like drug possession.) Some guy that should not have gone nuts suddenly poses a lethal threat to citizens and officers because they are facing a life sentence, and neither officer nor citizen expected it.



Longer prison sentences do reduce violent crime. It's not so much the deterrent factor but the fact that it's hard to rob and kill from an 8x6 concrete cell. The vast majority of violent crimes are committed by a small number of people, so locking them up keeping them otherwise engaged.

There is some merit to this, but at the same time we are supposed to be a free society. In a time when prisons are being privatized and prisoners are now a business and source of funds and labor, there is incentive to keep a steady flow of them coming in.
Some in the private prison businesses have been the strongest financial backers of various legislation to increase sentences in several states.

If you have a huge industry just waiting for citizens to step over the wrong boundary to become a slave, and that industry working hard to increase penalties and the number of crimes, you cease to really be a free society.
Freedom just becomes an illusion for the percentage that have yet to cross one of the ever increasing number of legislated boundaries.



There is no perfect solution, there will always be a percentage of violent criminals in a free society. That percentage will be greatly reduced however if the risk of serious injury or death is high in that line of work. (Places with a lot of armed citizens often have increased property crimes rather than violent crime against strangers as criminals are more likely to avoid armed citizens.) It will both deter as well as result in fewer surviving, without disrupting the intended tiered deterrent of criminal punishment by the legal system.
I am all in favor of an armed society and a lot more criminals shot during the course of violent crime. But once they are caught or surrender you have to give them an appropriate sentence proportional to the crime.
 
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Increase the penelty for law violators. Automatic 25 years in prison without porole.

It is not as simple as the OP thinks.

Actually, it is as simple as the OP thinks, but he's not going to like it.

There's this thing called the 8th Amendment. Perhaps some of you stopped after the 2nd and hadn't read that far.

The 8th Amendment states, simply "Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted."

Effectively what this means is that blanket sentencing irrespective of the circumstances and severity of the crime is unconstitutional.

There's also a serious separation of powers argument to be made here. The Legislative branch should not be pissing in the territory of the Judicial branch. Sadly, this issue hasn't made its way to the USC, yet.

But if that's the sort of society you wish to live in, there's always Saudi Arabia. I welcome you to emigrate.

Personally, I prefer robust justifiable homicide statutes that indemnify self defense and a complete liberalization of the RKBA.
 
The 8th Amendment does not now, and never has, prohibited a mandatory sentence upon conviction for a crime where due process of the law was provided. Murder in a great many states carries a mandatory sentence of life imprisonment. Premeditated and Felony murderers in our armed forces can only be sentenced to two punishments under the UCMJ: death by lethal injection and imprisonment for life. Definite terms of imprisonment are widely imposed upon conviction for crimes such as forcible rape, kidnapping and armed robbery. The fact is that even a mandatory death sentence isn't unconstitutional. The Supreme Court has ruled that it is but the Constitution is a written legal document and holds the same meaning it did at the time of its adoption. When the Constitution was adopted mandatory execution was accepted and widely practiced. SCOTUS overstepped its bounds when it ruled that a mandatory sentence of death upon a conviction of first degree murder was unconstitutional. So-called "evolving standards of decency" are a crock designed to allow Justices to do whatever they want, whenever they want as with a so-called "living constitution."

The issue today is that the Courts spend so much time, money and manpower handling cases related to narcotics, prostitution and vice that it ends up impacting their ability to handle their core caseload: crimes against persons and property. The same thing for prisons and jails: every cell occupied by an individual convicted of a narcotics charge alone is a cell that cannot be used to house a violent criminal. On top of this the Supreme Court and other lesser tribunals have made imposing the death penalty so costly and lengthy a process that executions no longer frighten criminals and have become more ritualistic than effective. This isn't a fault of the death penalty itself but rather Judges who've taken it upon themselves to knowingly and systematically render the punishment ineffective in the hopes of destroying it by stealth. They create inefficiencies and cost overruns and then use those same drawbacks to advocate the punishment's abolition when they are the ones who created those very weaknesses to begin with.

Will harsher punishments reduce crime? Yes, but only if narrowly targeted. If forcible rape, forcible sodomy, non-custodial kidnapping, armed robbery and the arson of an occupied structure/arson for profit carried a mandatory sentence of life imprisonment without parole and if intentional murder carried a mandatory death sentence crime would drop significantly. There are limits to what harsh punishments can accomplish on their own but they can still do a great deal to help, certainly more than victim disarmament. No one commits any of the offenses I listed above 'by accident'.
 
Pretty simple really. Instead of taking rights away from people you didn't have to worry about to begin with. Increase the penelty for law violators. Automatic 25 years in prison without porole. That should make criminals think twice before robbing a store right? Maybe that gang banger will reconcider before doing a drive by.
Your thoughts...
How many laws have you unknowingly violated today? I suspect it is several, the same as it is for anyone in this country. We all do our best, but there is simply no way as a finite human being not run afoul of some obscure regulation sometimes.

I do not thing 25-year sentences should be handed out lightly or for minor crimes.
 
There is an interim step.

Since many violent street crimes are committed with stolen handguns; why not make it a mandatory five or ten years for stealing or possessing a stolen handgun?

OTOH, I do agree with those who say "Just arm all of the potential victims".

leVieux
 
How many laws have you unknowingly violated today?

I'm not entirely sure :uhoh: One of the issues that I see is that we have SO many ways to get locked up. Violent crimes deserve just punishment, don't misconstrue it mean anything other than that, but some laws are simply outrageous. We have so many laws now that it's impossible for anyone to know them all.

I agree with zoogster that it is in our best interest to stay away from an "all or nothing" approach to crime. But, to be fair, I think that the sentences that are handed out in a court of law should be what the prisoner actually serves. Much less good behavior and parole.

Second, gun control is not 100% about gun control. It has quite a bit to do with people control.

IMHO the crime issue and the anti-gun issue are mutually exclusive. I'm sure that there are people who actually believe they are, but it isn't the architects. Those people just fell prey to the fear that is being sold, and they sell in bulk at a good deal mind you.

There's also a serious separation of powers argument to be made here. The Legislative branch should not be pissing in the territory of the Judicial branch.

Everyone is doing it actually, and they all need to STOP!

not some dude caught smoking a doobie.

If socialists have their way, smoking will be illegal and soon after that being caught with a cigarette will disqualify you from owning a firearm.

Like any other complex problem, there's no silver bullet for this one either. However, it all starts when the voice of the US citizens are what govern this country.

The only real interim solutions that are out there, aside from moving to repeal some of the bad laws and have a few good ones made, is just remove the anti-gun politicians one at a time until they begin to fear for their jobs.

Yes, arm the victims. I think that firearms and the training to use them, should be available, and the US government should pay for the training. I also think that the gun owner's associations, like NRA, GOA, SAF, and such, should all put extreme amounts of pressure on groups like the Brady Campaign to help keep guns out of criminals hands. If they're so interested in accidental discharge, then they should also lobby for the Fed funded training :what: If they want to keep the guns out of criminals hands, let's start by NOT making so many felons. They should help repeal laws that punish felons with restrictions on firearms for non-violent and non-firearms related crimes. I'm sure that they would also help lobby to strengthen existing laws to keep violent offenders off the street altogether. Anybody that truly wanted to keep guns out of the hands of criminals could start there.
 
The 8th Amendment does not now, and never has, prohibited a mandatory sentence upon conviction for a crime where due process of the law was provided. Murder in a great many states carries a mandatory sentence of life imprisonment. Premeditated and Felony murderers in our armed forces can only be sentenced to two punishments under the UCMJ: death by lethal injection and imprisonment for life. Definite terms of imprisonment are widely imposed upon conviction for crimes such as forcible rape, kidnapping and armed robbery. The fact is that even a mandatory death sentence isn't unconstitutional. The Supreme Court has ruled that it is but the Constitution is a written legal document and holds the same meaning it did at the time of its adoption. When the Constitution was adopted mandatory execution was accepted and widely practiced. SCOTUS overstepped its bounds when it ruled that a mandatory sentence of death upon a conviction of first degree murder was unconstitutional. So-called "evolving standards of decency" are a crock designed to allow Justices to do whatever they want, whenever they want as with a so-called "living constitution."

You're grossly misreading what I wrote. The 8th Amendment protects against excessive punishments. The OP is advocating a 25 year minimum sentence for ANY crime. Clearly this is unconstitutionally excessive to a rational person. I'm having difficulty understanding why you're breathing so hard through your mouth over the death penalty and judicial activism. But you're also wrong. It is entirely in SCOTUS' bailiwick to determine that the death penalty is excessive, under the 8th Amendment, much as you might disagree with them.

You're also wrongly conflating the two arguments I made. The LEGISLATURE has no business setting mandatory minimums. That is the province of the JUDICIARY, over which we, as voters, have very little sway. Thus, unless the OP wishes to become a judge and form a coalition of judges to institute these new mandatory minimums, his idea is constitutionally moot.

But I'll reiterate: Mandatory minimums have proven ineffective as a deterrent. The far better deterrent is armed self-defense by the common citizenry. The OP's idea is wrong-headed, proven ineffective, and unconstitutional.
 
"Increase the penelty for law violators. Automatic 25 years in prison without porole."

Your "solution" is about as simplistic and provincial as they come. Its right at the same level as me asking the Fairy God Mother to stop by and take care of my hemorroids. :eek:
 
I think many of the prison terms are unjust and to long for non violent crimes *follow the money*.. I have not ever been arrested and have not spent the night, compliments of the justice system, in a cell but....To me a year is a long time. Those who have served in the military know what I mean.

If I had more faith in the justice system I would certainly feel more comfortable with swift execution of those who are convicted/proved to be guilty of a heinous crime.

When Dad was a kid a horse thief was caught red handed and hung within the hour by some ranchers.

It cost some of the ranchers time and the price of the rope for they left him hang there. Sorry if some feel that is horrible; the thief was caught with the string of horses and tracked from where they were stolen to a water hole. He certainly was not returning the horses for he was going in the wrong direction. The only reason it took and hour to hang him there were no suitable trees around. I am actually surprised they just did not shoot him or hurt him mucho but they all believed it was a hanging offense for horse thieves and they were all pillars of the community.

If charged for something I did not do for what ever reason I would certainly be *unhappy*. Later if proven innocent and won the miscarriage of justice lotto after locked up for 10 years I would still be *unhappy* and *bitter*. Life is to short to be that unhappy and bitter at anything.

Time off for good behavior is just another control mechanism.
 
Pretty simple really. Instead of taking rights away from people you didn't have to worry about to begin with. Increase the penelty for law violators. Automatic 25 years in prison without porole. That should make criminals think twice before robbing a store right? Maybe that gang banger will reconcider before doing a drive by.
Your thoughts...

No improvement will be had, but taxes will skyrocket to cover the cost of additional prisons, guards, incarceration, and general welfare for families of prisoners.

The death penalty does not stop murderers or lower the murder rate. Sure, a select few murderers never murder again, but overall the effect is nil. Felony convictions with a loss of rights doesn't stop people (who later down the road often appear places like this and proclaim their immature wild hairs and argue why they should have rights restored....as it was a long time ago).

At 25 years, mandatory, criminals may decide the difference between 25 and the death penalty is small and then opt to start killing more victims who are witnesses as a means to help stay out of prison. So you have the murder rate potentially climbing as a result.

In short, your plan will result on an attack of law-abiding citizens as well.
 
The real issue...

Here's the real problem: Strict laws are ignored or not applied BY THE JUDICAL SYSTEM! You can read case after case where a criminal, arrested for a infamous crime, had many, many prior arrests for such crimes such as "felon in possession of a gun," "assault with a deadly weapon," and so on, but invariably, no effort was made to convict the bad guy. New laws will not be applied with any more vigor.

I believe there was a cop-killing in Pennsylvania a year or so ago, where one suspect had been arrested on the "felon in possession" over 20 times but never charged, and his accomplice had been violating his probation but no one had taken any action.

Given this, what will new laws accomplish?

- - - Yoda
 
Good in theory...

The problem is when the bad laws are kept and then more laws piled on...

Or when you inadverntently violate an arbitrary law you weren't aware of... say traveling through X jurisdiction with X weapon/magazine, or certain ammo (HPs), or lending a gun to a friend who you didn't know was on the long list of arbitrarily restricted persons, etc...

IMO all gun laws should be struck and we should start over with the 5 most important ones. Get rid of the bans on barrel lenght, pistol grips, cosmetic features, shipping in the mail, blah blah blah blah...

Give me the 5 most important gun laws for the security of the nation and that's it!

We already have laws against murder, robbery, etc. Seems like prohibiting ownership is punishing the innocent law abiding...
 
Murder carry's either life in prison or the death penalty...

:rolleyes: WHAT???


does that stop people from committing murder? Not one bit.

Maybe because most convicted murderers are freed in less than 10 or 20 years...and those who are plea-bargained down to a lesser charge are freed even sooner.

I'm not sure how you can believe the death penalty doesn't prevent subsequent murders :banghead: unless ghosts are committing murder.
 
why on earth was it even considered that a gang banger considers the consequences of their actions as a trip to the pen. They don't kill out of logical necessity so why would you assume they would logically consider out the outcome will affect their freedom? Besides, most of them have buddies inside the pen they haven't seen in years so they don't worry too much about that. Killing murderers never kept people from killing each other, it only kept a murdered from doing it again. People could be killed for stealing a horse a hundred or so years ago, and that didn't stop people from stealing horses.

Criminals aren't logical. It's like pride and aesthetics. There's hardly anything logical to them and typically the illogical gravitate to them. I believe it is currently up to 12 states that have forbid the death penalty and have imposed upon their citizenry the obligation to pay for the offenders for the rest of their God-given life or to send them somewhere it is nearly impossible to help them correct their behavior and learn to live in society.

Nearly 70% or all felons recidivate, chief amongst those are individuals who steal (burglars, robbers, etc). It should be noted with particular interest that for individuals convicted of sex crimes recidivism is estimated to be as much as 92% with only a minor fraction of their crimes being reported. Many of the repeat offenders suffer from some level of psychopathy from their upbringing but have developed ways of coping with it otherwise. This prevents them to fully understand the consequences of their actions and many times leads them to believe in completely unlikely outcomes like getting away with their crimes. For the record, mush less than 50% of murderers recidivate. The most common are individuals committing crimes against property and drug abusers.

I'm all for the death penalty for murderers, more so for child molesters, but I know what it takes to prosecute someone for a capital crime carrying a death sentence or life w/o parole. The 13th Amendment still allows for the exploitation of prison labor and I'm thinking it does so that society may still benefit from these individuals while helping the accused make reparations to society for their crimes. That might be a little too extreme in this day and age so we'll have to continue to let them sit it out on vacation with their buddies while we pay for their medical, dental, optical, nutritional, educational, and recreational benefits.
 
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