Any accuracy reports on single vs progressive for rifles?

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stgdz

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Been thinking about buying a conversion kit for my 550 as single stage loading can only go so fast. I have heard that you tend to loose accuracy with progressive reloading but this is relative term to me as one persons feeling on accuracy may be different from another.

So....will I start to open up groups if I switch to a progressive. Powder, primer, cases, bullets and trim would all stay the same.
 
http://www.jarheadtop.com/article_reloadquant.html "Addendum: Progressive or Multi-Stage Reloading Match Ammunition

Progressive or multi-stage reloading machines are increasingly used by NRA Highpower Rifle competitors for preparing match ammunition, especially if shooting the 223/5.56 round. One many time national champion loads his 200 and 300 yard ammo on a progressive, the United States Army Marksmanship Unit did the same until they switched to commercial ammo for the short ranges, and ammo for the International Palma Championships was done on progressives. John Feamster, a careful analyst, got smaller 60 shot groups with his progressively loaded short range ammo than with his single stage loads. Most still load their long range ammo in the single stage manner, though some do long range loads on the machine, but substitute weighed charges for machine thrown. Those who load progressively overwhelmingly prefer the Dillon machines, particularly the 550B model, over those from Lee, RCBS and Hornaday. Some modifications are made to the Dillon machines, including taper reaming and polishing the funnel area of the powder metering system smooth, making the powder meter fingertip adjustable, and surface grinding the bottom of the shell plate to reduce slop. Get to really know your machine before making any modifications.

Actually, the method used should be called "semi-progressive" or "interrupted progressive" loading, for the process starts on the machine, side steps for case preparation, then returns to the machine for a fast finish. Brass cleaned in the polisher to remove range dirt is sized and deprimed on the machine, then goes off line for lube removal, trimming/chamfering/deburring, and primer pocket cleaning. Some remove each case by hand, others allow the cases to go around the cycle with the priming and powder metering functions disabled. The cases return to the machine for primer seating, powder charging and bullet seating. Reports are that best results come from progressing at medium speed; a slam bang crank 'em out as fast as possible approach reduces consistency. The best set up I have seen features the Redding bushing-type full length sizing die, and Redding Competition Seating Die." If you want benchrest accuracy (Groups 1/4" average or less for 25 shots @ 100 yds.), stay with all custom items/single stage.
 
From 243winxb:
Actually, the method used should be called "semi-progressive" or "interrupted progressive" loading, for the process starts on the machine, side steps for case preparation, then returns to the machine for a fast finish. Brass cleaned in the polisher to remove range dirt is sized and deprimed on the machine, then goes off line for lube removal, trimming/chamfering/deburring, and primer pocket cleaning.​

This is what I do loading 223 Rem on my 550B. Only difference for me is that I deprime on an inexpensive single stage before primer pocket uniforming.
 
243winxb said:
Actually, the method used should be called "semi-progressive" or "interrupted progressive" loading, for the process starts on the machine, side steps for case preparation, then returns to the machine for a fast finish. Brass cleaned in the polisher to remove range dirt is sized and deprimed on the machine, then goes off line for lube removal, trimming/chamfering/deburring, and primer pocket cleaning.
I've done essentially the same thing on my 550. It seems to work pretty well. Unfortunately none of the rifles I load for can tell much (if any) difference between meticulously anal and steady loading, so I opt for the latter.
 
I think someone ONCE tried a progressive machine (I think it was a Dillon) at a major benchrest match.


But you benchresters are a whole nother level of craziness. ;)

For the Highpower shooters, if you can get 10 shots in under an inch, its usually good enough.

I just recently took the craptacular chrome lined HBAR off my AR and replaced it with a Pac-Nor DCM contour barrel. Saturday, I loaded up a series of loads on my loosey goosey Lee Turret Press (semi-progressively as written above)using Varget and 175gr AMAXs to find a 'good enough' load for the match on Sunday. 2 of the loads put 5 shots into one hole (<0.5" grouping) with a scope mounted. I was absolutely shocked at how well it shot- never owned a rifle that was this acurate. I will be testing more loads in the next few weeks ( I want more velocity), including a much longer string of one of the loads that grouped well.

Yes you can make 'good enough' ammo on a non-single stage press if 'good enough' doesn't mean you need groups measured in the thousanths of an inch.

BTW, I shot my personal best score on Sunday. I can't shoot anywhere within the zipcode of the rifle's potential, but it sure gives a huge boost of confidence knowing that the accuracy of the rifle is no longer in question or a deciding factor a bullet hits where I don't want it to. The old chrome lined HBAR shot groups that would span the entire 10ring of the slow prone target- and that was with the benifit of using a benchrest.
 
Sorry 243winxb, I respectfully submit to you that after examining your droppings, that you need to check the horse you rode in on for irritable bowl syndrome and kidney disorders. I CRY FOUL to your link, the jarhead article, it is 8 years old, and is no longer valid.

Several members of this forum have done run-out testing on Dillon and LNL AP presses. The difference is both measurable and quantifiable. The Hornady progressive does a significantly better job at maintaining better run-out.

I will reprint a segment of a thread from 6/6/08 by BigJakeJ1s, that gives engineering reasons for the LNL's better concentricity:

Quote:
The Hornady LNL AP is a beefy machine, much more solid than the Dillons. IMHO it apparently does not flex as unevenly due different pressures on each side of the ram/shell plate as compared to the 550 or 650. This would explain the better run-out. But I’m no expert.
The engineer in me wants you to explain that statement. Bullet seating and thus its run-out is determined by how the bullet is set by the die and to some extent by the preparation of the brass before it accepts the bullet. The sturdiness of the ram of the press should bear little on the actual seating of the bullet, which occurs near the top of the stroke and any issues in the shell plate or ram stability minimized by simply being consistent at the top of the stroke. Are you using exactly the same dies, bullets, OAL, etc between them and making sure that the brass is flared exactly the same amount?

There are two areas in most reloading presses (single stage or progressive, other than die features/quality) that influence the straightness of sizing and expanding brass, and seating bullets: How or if dies are allowed to float independently to seek their own center relative to the case, and tightness/sturdiness of the ram in its bearing(s).

The latter is particularly critical in progressive presses, since different forces in different stations impart a tilting force on the ram, which if not sufficiently restrained will misalign the cartridges with the dies. Also, traditional compound leverage presses (with the toggle at the bottom end of the ram) have varying levels of tilting (lateral) force applied to the the bottom end of the ram during the stroke. Given equivalent manufacturing tolerances (i.e. bearing play), the sturdier, larger diameter ram of the LNL AP better resists/restrains the off-axis thrusts. In single stage presses, this is one reason many H-style presses and the Forster co-ax have excellent reputations for accuracy/concentricity.

The former (die float) issue is quite different between the two major systems of die retention in progressive presses. Dillon, Lee, and RCBS have the dies mounted rigidly in a single plate that floats in the press frame. The LNL AP has dies that individually float (to a lesser degree) in LNL bushings. As the cases advance into the dies, if one die engages (excerts pressure on) its case before others do, that one die/cartridge starts to lift its side of the tool head before the other side, causing tilt. Furthermore, each die is tilted at the same time/degree because they are all rigidly attached to the die plate. Granted, once the tool head travels to the top of its slot, it will even out consistently, but in the meantime, different cases were advancing into dies at an angle, causing problems. The LNL die retention system does not suffer from this problem.

At least one user has measurably improved the runout in ammunition loaded on their Dillon press by drilling a hole in the lock ring parallel to the die axis, and then installing a corresponding pin in the tool head that engages the hole in the lock ring. In this manner, the pin can keep the lock ring and die from turning, while still allowing the lock ring to float above the tool head, thus allowing the die to float in its threads. This is repeated for each station. Note that this modification requires the use of lock rings which can be fixed to the die via a set or clamp screw, excluding Dillon and Lee lock rings. While not perfect (conical die threads couple lateral float to angular float, which can interfere with the resulting alignment of the die to the cartridge) this is certainly an improvement over the stock arrangement.

Andy
 
I just got my NECO case gauge yesterday. I just might have to set up my RCBS pro2000 and stack it up against my partner press w/ my last new batch of Lapua .222 Rem brass.

I'd like to see how the Uniflow dispenser compares to my chargemaster 1500 w/ BL-C powder.
 
Shoney loves droppings

Hey Shoney, Get your nose out of my horses ass, you brown noser. Shoney keep examining the droppings, you just might learn something.
Several members of this forum have done run-out testing on Dillon and LNL AP presses. The difference is both measurable and quantifiable
 
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David Tubb uses a Dillon press to load his match ammunition.

I'm just saying... for super-competitive benchresters, maybe it will make a difference. For most people, not a lick of it!
 
CBS220: Please remember that the press Tubb uses is not a stock press. It most certainly has been tricked out, most likely as follows"
The ram and arm assembly have been selected because they maintain absolutely perpendicular movement to the hand-selected toolhead throughout the cycle. The shell plate has been milled to fine tolerances so that it is perpendicular to ram and parallel to the toolhead, and in addition fits the shells very very tightly. The lock rings on the dies are equipped with extra lock screws, and additional work has been done to keep the press within minimal movement and tolerances.

Do you think your stock Dillon can approach the concentricity or Tubb’s press?
 
Several members of this forum have done run-out testing on Dillon and LNL AP presses. The difference is both measurable and quantifiable. The Hornady progressive does a significantly better job at maintaining better run-out.

Does this translate to something that has been measured on a target? I'm not really interested in what happens in my garage unless it matters on a target.
 
Yes, 30Cal. It is well known that bullet run-out, or concentricity, is a major factor in producing accurate ammunition. Why do you suppose benchrest and 1000 yard shooters are so particular about case prep concentricity as well as cartridge concentricity??????????
 
Hmmm... are you trying to keep every bullet you fire going through a single hole at 800 yards? If yes, use a single stage and do every single reloading operation by hand.

Are you trying to hit the dead zone in a 3 gun competition? Get a progressive.

FWIW - Hornaday's factory uses Dillon 550Bs to load their "precision hunting rounds".
 
Many moons ago, the guy who made that NECO concentricity gage did a bunch of experimentation. I think he has been deceased awhile, but I remember that concentricity readings had much to do with the inherent banana shape of the brass. In essence, the case walls are of different thickness as you go 'round the case. When fired, the thinner side stretches more than the thicker side, thus tilting the bullet some as it enters the leade. This tilting was supposed to adversely affect accuracy, UNLESS one could orient the bullets so that they were tipping the same direction in the chamber, in which instance, they would shoot better than rounds exhibiting little variance in concentricity.

IIRC, no matter that the dies straighten out the cartridge casing in cold sizing so that it exhibits little runout. At the moment of firing, the case bends toward the thick walled side, thus launching the bullet at an angle relative to the axis of the bore.

So, in the end, measuring concentricity in your loaded rounds is less important than measuring group size on the target, all other variables being the same.

At least that's what I recollect.
 
So, in the end, measuring concentricity in your loaded rounds is less important than measuring group size on the target, all other variables being the same.

So, what you're trying to say is that a gun that shoots smaller groups is better than one that shoots larger groups?
 
Please remember that the press Tubb uses is not a stock press. It most certainly has been tricked out, most likely as follows...
There's an interesting article in Handloading for Competition about David Tubb's press. None of the modifications that you mention are evident. The biggest/most expensive mod is the zillion-dollar Prometheus powder measure.

- Chris
 
Chris Rhimes: WooW!! You are amazing!!!! You can actually look at a picture of a press and
determine that the plate is or is not milled off by 0.01, or even 0.1; and
determine that the plate is or isn't perpendicular to the ram; and
determine that the plate is or is not parallel to the toolhead.:what::rolleyes::neener:

The Prometheus powder measure is only $1200, with shipping of course.
 
I agree with Shoney.

I have owned a 550 and currently own a LnL. My buddy owns a 650. We got curious and decided to try out which reloader really did the trick down range with rifle cartridges.

I own a new Stevens 200 (Savage) in caliber 30.06 with a Burris Fullfield II sitting on top. The rifle has been fully tricked out with everything reasonable that can be done to increase/enhance it's accuracy with the exception of replacing the factory barrel. It isn't a "picky" rifle and will shoot right at MIA (5 shot groups) off a bench using a rest and good quality ammo of most brands. It is a hunting rifle.

I loaded 20 rounds on my buddy's 650 and 20 rounds on my LnL. The load was a 175 gr. Sierra MatchKing HPBT seated above a Winchester primer, LC Match brass and 45.5 grains of IMR4895 (This rifle's favorite load worked up from 43 gr.)

Shot both batches of ammo for group. The 650 ammo was right at 1.02" average of 4 groups and the LnL ammo shot into .87" average of 4 groups.

Well, that's only .15" at a hundred yards, not enough to make a difference some might say. Maybe, maybe not. But you get far enough out there distance wise and that .15" is enough to make a difference.

What made the difference? As near as we could tell, it was the runout. I apologize, as I no longer have the runout numbers, having tossed the wind dope book I wrote them in. Wish I'd written them in the reloading manual where I wrote down the group sizes. But I do remember they were big enough to make a difference and they did, downrange where it counted.

Regards,

Dave
 
Yes, 30Cal. It is well known that bullet run-out, or concentricity, is a major factor in producing accurate ammunition. Why do you suppose benchrest and 1000 yard shooters are so particular about case prep concentricity as well as cartridge concentricity??????????

I've seen lots of authors speculate on the effects of varying degrees of runout, but have never seen targets (or measurements taken from targets) which show what the real impact of runout is.
 
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