Any advice about the M1A?
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spartacus2002
Member
They are addictive 
The M1A is a fabulous rifle and very reliable. That said, Springfield Armory has had some quality issues in the past few years. I'd replace the extractor with a USGI one from Orion Enterprises or Bill Ricca, then shoot the hell out of it.
M1As need grease, not oil, for lubrication.
Advantages: you can use a sling. Very reliable. Easy recoil. Surplus 7.62x51 is cheap. VERY accurate.
Shortcomings: some folks don't like the ergonomics.
The M1A is a fabulous rifle and very reliable. That said, Springfield Armory has had some quality issues in the past few years. I'd replace the extractor with a USGI one from Orion Enterprises or Bill Ricca, then shoot the hell out of it.
M1As need grease, not oil, for lubrication.
Advantages: you can use a sling. Very reliable. Easy recoil. Surplus 7.62x51 is cheap. VERY accurate.
Shortcomings: some folks don't like the ergonomics.
Chris Orndorff
Member
vol_907 said:
Makes my AR no fun to shoot anymore!
1911_Mitch
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M14 comes in 3 basic sizes: 16" SOCOM, 18" SCOUT, and 22" STANDARD
M14s come in several basic grades: Rack, Match, Supermatch, etc.
Barrels are standard countour, medium weight and heavyweight. The heavier barrels are usually used for match shooting.
The standard contour barrel on USGI rifles was chrome-lined. Match barrels are not chrome-lined.
There are many stock options available: LAW483, McMillan, USGI wood/fiberglass, TROY, SAGE, etc..
Rifles with USGI parts are preferred to some of the aftermarket parts found on newer rifles.
The big players are: Springfield Armory, Fulton Armory, Smith Enterprise, and LRB.
The smaller players include: Nornico / Polytech, Enterprise Arms, MKS, etc..
Best value in a rack grade: LRB
LRB receivers are forged in the USA and machined to USGI specs. LRB rifles use USGI parts.
Springfield Armory receivers are cast, and they use some USGI parts, but not always.
The National match mods include: NM 4.5-5# trigger, Unitized gas cylinder (with the front band), NM guide rod (for mainspring), NM sights, and bedding.
Most recognized M14 custom builders are: Smith Enterprise, Fulton Armory, Warbirds Custom Guns, and Ted Brown - The Shooters Den. There are others.
Check out M-14forum.com
M14s come in several basic grades: Rack, Match, Supermatch, etc.
Barrels are standard countour, medium weight and heavyweight. The heavier barrels are usually used for match shooting.
The standard contour barrel on USGI rifles was chrome-lined. Match barrels are not chrome-lined.
There are many stock options available: LAW483, McMillan, USGI wood/fiberglass, TROY, SAGE, etc..
Rifles with USGI parts are preferred to some of the aftermarket parts found on newer rifles.
The big players are: Springfield Armory, Fulton Armory, Smith Enterprise, and LRB.
The smaller players include: Nornico / Polytech, Enterprise Arms, MKS, etc..
Best value in a rack grade: LRB
LRB receivers are forged in the USA and machined to USGI specs. LRB rifles use USGI parts.
Springfield Armory receivers are cast, and they use some USGI parts, but not always.
The National match mods include: NM 4.5-5# trigger, Unitized gas cylinder (with the front band), NM guide rod (for mainspring), NM sights, and bedding.
Most recognized M14 custom builders are: Smith Enterprise, Fulton Armory, Warbirds Custom Guns, and Ted Brown - The Shooters Den. There are others.
Check out M-14forum.com
vol_907 said:
Where to start....as with all my purchases, I've done an inordinate amount of research on the weapon in question.
Before I go into more detail, I'll say this: The M14 is without a doubt one of the finest, most accurate, durable, reliable, powerful, and overall best battle rifles ever devised in the world. Period.
Buy it. Just do it.
Now for more detail......
If you go to M14forum, you can learn a lot more about these rifles.
Many will try to steer you towards some sort of a custom rifle or something other than the Springfield offerings.
If you are both willing and able to spend upwards of $2,000.00 for your M1A, go ahead. I'm sure they are fine weapons and well worth it, and someday when I can I will likely buy a higher-end M1A.
However, based on all the research I've done, the Springfield M1A's are damn fine weapons and there is no glaring benefit to spending half again as much for a higher end rifle.
The Springfields will be just as reliable, durable, accurate, etc. as the higher-end rifles.
Again, not to say the higher end rifles aren't worth it, just that the Springfields aren't as bad as some people make them out to be.
Springfield offers four major flavors of M1A:
- SOCOM I and II.
These rifles both have a short, 16" barrel and the SOCOM II has an interesting, uber-tactical cluster rail system. The gas system on these shorter guns is NOT the same as on the Scout and Standard length M1A, and that would make me pass two these up as a main battle rifle. As a range toy, sure, but I don't want to bet my life on a non-standard, unproven system.
By all accounts I've read, they are accurate, reliable and tons of fun to shoot.
These are rather expensive, with the SOCOM I being around $15-1600.00 and the SOCOM II being close to $2K.
- Scout Squad.
This rifle is exactly like a standard length M1A (gas system and all other components are the same) except the barrel is slightly shorter; (18" vs. the standard 22" length.)
This is the one I chose. Frankly, the standard length M1A just looks a little "unbalanced" to me; the barrel seems too long for the rifle.
To my eye, the Scout seems perfectly proportioned.
Also, the shorter barrel makes for easier handling. The velocity loss between the 18" and 22" barrel is negligible; around 200fps or so, so it is not really a factor.
- Standard M1A.
It's an M1A.
- National Match and other accurized models.
These are Standard length M1A's, but are accurized. They are more expensive than most of the other Springfield M1A's. Whether or not to buy one of these simply depends on how much accuracy you want. AFAIK, even these accurized versions are only capable of about 1 MOA, with a regular M1A in good repair should be about a 2-3 MOA gun.
As far as accessories go, buy only real, USGI magazines and lots of ammo.
Advice??
If the urge is upon you buy one.
Forget all the negative crap that is said about these rifles.
I have not seen one yet that was so very bad it could not be made to shoot or function right.
Some of the rifles have, and will have, some issues but nothing that can't be fixed.
The majority of the guns are good to go right out of the box, clean it and shoot it.
The only guys I have ever known that really slam the rifle are Match shooters that cut their teeth on M1 Garands and now shoot AR15s.
If the urge is upon you buy one.
Forget all the negative crap that is said about these rifles.
I have not seen one yet that was so very bad it could not be made to shoot or function right.
Some of the rifles have, and will have, some issues but nothing that can't be fixed.
The majority of the guns are good to go right out of the box, clean it and shoot it.
The only guys I have ever known that really slam the rifle are Match shooters that cut their teeth on M1 Garands and now shoot AR15s.
ACP230
Member
There are sometimes Springfields for sale at www.sturmgewehr.com.
I think I saw a standard one with a black synthetic stock there today for $1050. I've seen some as low as $900 there, but not recently.
Other places to look would be www.jouster.com and www.subguns.com.
I haven't checked for them on gunsamerica yet, but they list a lot of guns.
I bought a HP match shooters back up rifle years ago. It had a synthetic stock and some target work done. I shot it for several year in HP matches and it was accurate and easy to reload for. It is one of my most accurate rifles, and the most consistently accurate one. I shot it a lot with bulk 147 Winchester FMJ boattails. They aren't match bullets but the M1A shot them well. I had a couple of good days and shot sub MOA groups at 200 yards from prone with the combination.
I think I saw a standard one with a black synthetic stock there today for $1050. I've seen some as low as $900 there, but not recently.
Other places to look would be www.jouster.com and www.subguns.com.
I haven't checked for them on gunsamerica yet, but they list a lot of guns.
I bought a HP match shooters back up rifle years ago. It had a synthetic stock and some target work done. I shot it for several year in HP matches and it was accurate and easy to reload for. It is one of my most accurate rifles, and the most consistently accurate one. I shot it a lot with bulk 147 Winchester FMJ boattails. They aren't match bullets but the M1A shot them well. I had a couple of good days and shot sub MOA groups at 200 yards from prone with the combination.
djl4570
Member
I have three of them. Two super national match grades (Purchased new in 2001 and 2002) and a standard grade I purchased used this year. The only problems I've had:
The Springfield Inc. trigger groups on both Supermatch rifles sucked. The trigger guard on one of them was so soft it would pop open on its own. I replaced both of these with match tuned USGI trigger groups purchased from Fulton Armory.
The bolt roller clip on the 2002 super match broke allowing the bolt roller to float back and forth on the roller lug. Since I don't fieldstrip the bedded rifles very often I did not discover this problem until the roller lug was buggered. I recently corrected this problem by headspacing a different USGI bolt into the rifle.
The wood stocks as they come from Springfield need some TLC. A fair amount of sanding to smooth out rough spots and coarse sanding marks followed by several hand rubbed coats of your favorite stock oil (raw linseed, boiled linseed, pure tung oil, danish oil in nice thin coats with the excess promptly removed).
These are great rifles and I would have no concerns buying another used one. I probably would not buy a new M1A because I have seen a fair number of nice used ones on the market.
Anyone getting one of these should hang out at Hawk's M14 site linked in a previous post. There's a lot of people who have them and you can learn the ins and outs of shooting and caring for a gas operated battle rifle.
The Springfield Inc. trigger groups on both Supermatch rifles sucked. The trigger guard on one of them was so soft it would pop open on its own. I replaced both of these with match tuned USGI trigger groups purchased from Fulton Armory.
The bolt roller clip on the 2002 super match broke allowing the bolt roller to float back and forth on the roller lug. Since I don't fieldstrip the bedded rifles very often I did not discover this problem until the roller lug was buggered. I recently corrected this problem by headspacing a different USGI bolt into the rifle.
The wood stocks as they come from Springfield need some TLC. A fair amount of sanding to smooth out rough spots and coarse sanding marks followed by several hand rubbed coats of your favorite stock oil (raw linseed, boiled linseed, pure tung oil, danish oil in nice thin coats with the excess promptly removed).
These are great rifles and I would have no concerns buying another used one. I probably would not buy a new M1A because I have seen a fair number of nice used ones on the market.
Anyone getting one of these should hang out at Hawk's M14 site linked in a previous post. There's a lot of people who have them and you can learn the ins and outs of shooting and caring for a gas operated battle rifle.
varoadking
Member
I would personally not call a $2,000 rack grade rifle a "best value." Great value can be found in an SA, Inc. Standard with GI parts for $1,100 or so, as found on these forums and Gunbroker quite regularly. The Chinese rifles can also be a great value at $800.
LRB is the M14S variant du jour - the designer M1AS if you will. I'd venture that 90+% of the folks that speak so well of LRB have no personal expeience with one.
IHMO, YMMV
30Cal
Member
I've got a Supermatch, and I'm working on burning out the 2nd barrel. No real problems other than a little patch job on the bedding. It shoots pretty good. If I was looking to buy and M14 clone today, I'd find a decent used one. Try posting a "WTB" add on nationalmatch.us--probably a couple AR shooters over there just sitting on a dusty M1A that could use a new home. You usually see a match rifle come up every month or so for $1300-1600.
Ty
Ty
ocabj
Member
30Cal said:
Sweet shooting, 30cal. Nothing like cleaning a stage.
Thanks for everyone's help
I'm still in the process of looking for one online. I've found a couple in my price range over at gunsamerica and gunbroker, and have made an inquiry or two. I'd prefer an 18" scout if I can find one, but I can live with a 4" longer barrel on a standard.
A couple other questions:
What is a "loaded" M1A?
What sort of scope would you recommend getting for it? I'm not interested in competition shooting, but fairly accurate shot placement on a moose or caribou at ranges of 400-700 yards.
The question that would naturally follow next would involve anything extra I'd need to mount the scope.
Thanks again for all the input, fellas.
jth
I'm still in the process of looking for one online. I've found a couple in my price range over at gunsamerica and gunbroker, and have made an inquiry or two. I'd prefer an 18" scout if I can find one, but I can live with a 4" longer barrel on a standard.
A couple other questions:
What is a "loaded" M1A?
What sort of scope would you recommend getting for it? I'm not interested in competition shooting, but fairly accurate shot placement on a moose or caribou at ranges of 400-700 yards.
The question that would naturally follow next would involve anything extra I'd need to mount the scope.
Thanks again for all the input, fellas.
jth
spartacus2002
Member
A Loaded M1A is a standard M1A with certain National Match upgrades, namely the front sight, a nonhooded rear sight, a medium-weight match barrel, a reamed flash suppressor, and the match trigger job. It lacks the bedded stock, the NM gas modification, the NM oprod spring guide, and the hooded rear sight.
My first M1A was a Loaded. I love it, but it is a bit heavy with that match barrel.
As for the LRB, they are all USGI parts and has a forged receiver, but for a first M1A I'd buy a used Springfield Armory Inc and see how you like it. A trigger job is $45, unitizing the gas system is $56.
My first M1A was a Loaded. I love it, but it is a bit heavy with that match barrel.
As for the LRB, they are all USGI parts and has a forged receiver, but for a first M1A I'd buy a used Springfield Armory Inc and see how you like it. A trigger job is $45, unitizing the gas system is $56.
30Cal
Member
vol_907 said:
Just to make sure you're aware, the M1A shouldn't be fed bullets over 175grs doing about 2650 FPS due to the gas system (well, really because of the oprod getting beaten to death). You can buy a vented gas plug that will allow you to shoot heavier stuff, but it's still a .308/7.62 at the end of the day.
djl4570
Member
Shooting at a moose or a caribou with a .308 at 400-700 yards is foolish and just leads to wounded animals that have a quarter mile head start on you. Do you even have any idea how many minutes of elevation you would need to get a zero at these kinds of ranges or how much a light cross wind will cause your shots to drift. Learn to stalk and take high percentage shots under 300 yards.
The Springfield third gen mount is made of aluminum and the instructions state (I kid you not) that you tighten the screw it and whack the mount with a mallet tighten it some more and whack it again. This mount positions the scope very high above the receiver and was not at all pleasant to shoot.
The Brookfield style mount was originally designed for the M14, This mount is far better and currently made in some variation by Ron Smith among others.
The best M14 mount in my opinion is the Dick Swan designed Arms 18 mount. I have one of these on my older M1A. This mount places the scope as low as possible over the receiver. I had a few problems with jams during ejection which have not recurred after I polished a sharp edge on the underside of the mount with a diamond hone.
Standard grade M1A's typically shoot about two to three moa out of the box so hanging a scope on one is a recipie for frustration. No matter what you do a three MOA rifle is going to shoot three inch groups at 100 yards with or without a scope. These rifles can be made to shoot more accurately by replacing the gas cylinder with a unitized gas cylinder or shimming the gas cylinder so the lock nut pulls tight, bedding the action, installing a bolt with tighter headspace and finally replacing the barrel with a heavy more preciscely chambered match barrel. The used M1A I bought closed on a SAMMI 1.534 Nogo gauge and almost closed on 1.635, OK for 7.62x51 but not conductive to accuracy. I replaced the gas system with a unitized one and I replaced the bolt with a new looking and lightly worn TRW that didn't quite close on 1.632. The rifle now shoots gold medal match ammo under two MOA and I that's as good as it will get without bedding or rebarreling.
The M1A has limitations on the kind of ammo that you can feed it. Ammo marked light magnum or HE probably should not be shot in a gas operated rifle. The manufacturer is getting the higher velocity by using slow powders outside the acceptable burn rate range for the gas system. This is generally quoted as between IMR3031 and IMR4064. The same is true for heavier bullets such as 180g hunting loads. These push the pressure limits in a bolt action and while an M1A might shoot a few of them it will slam the action and can crack the receiver.
Scoping an M1A can be problematic. There are several mounts designed for the M14 and some of these will not cleanly fit recent Springfield receivers.vol_907 said:
The Springfield third gen mount is made of aluminum and the instructions state (I kid you not) that you tighten the screw it and whack the mount with a mallet tighten it some more and whack it again. This mount positions the scope very high above the receiver and was not at all pleasant to shoot.
The Brookfield style mount was originally designed for the M14, This mount is far better and currently made in some variation by Ron Smith among others.
The best M14 mount in my opinion is the Dick Swan designed Arms 18 mount. I have one of these on my older M1A. This mount places the scope as low as possible over the receiver. I had a few problems with jams during ejection which have not recurred after I polished a sharp edge on the underside of the mount with a diamond hone.
Standard grade M1A's typically shoot about two to three moa out of the box so hanging a scope on one is a recipie for frustration. No matter what you do a three MOA rifle is going to shoot three inch groups at 100 yards with or without a scope. These rifles can be made to shoot more accurately by replacing the gas cylinder with a unitized gas cylinder or shimming the gas cylinder so the lock nut pulls tight, bedding the action, installing a bolt with tighter headspace and finally replacing the barrel with a heavy more preciscely chambered match barrel. The used M1A I bought closed on a SAMMI 1.534 Nogo gauge and almost closed on 1.635, OK for 7.62x51 but not conductive to accuracy. I replaced the gas system with a unitized one and I replaced the bolt with a new looking and lightly worn TRW that didn't quite close on 1.632. The rifle now shoots gold medal match ammo under two MOA and I that's as good as it will get without bedding or rebarreling.
The M1A has limitations on the kind of ammo that you can feed it. Ammo marked light magnum or HE probably should not be shot in a gas operated rifle. The manufacturer is getting the higher velocity by using slow powders outside the acceptable burn rate range for the gas system. This is generally quoted as between IMR3031 and IMR4064. The same is true for heavier bullets such as 180g hunting loads. These push the pressure limits in a bolt action and while an M1A might shoot a few of them it will slam the action and can crack the receiver.
Stinkyshoe
Member
30cal.,
Wow that is some fine shooting! Would you mind commenting on the distance, load and perhaps the rifles specifics? In your opinion is there a significant advantage of the Rack grade Springfield compared to the NM. Obviously for super match is quite good!
Ss
Wow that is some fine shooting! Would you mind commenting on the distance, load and perhaps the rifles specifics? In your opinion is there a significant advantage of the Rack grade Springfield compared to the NM. Obviously for super match is quite good!
Ss
30Cal
Member
That's 300yds, iron sights, rapidfire prone with a sling--2+8rds in 70 seconds. The load is the standard M852 duplicate--168grSMK, 41.5gr IMR4895, surplus case. I use WLR primers and seat to 2.81" The rifle is SA Inc Supermatch rebarreled with a Kreiger 1:12" stainless. The local M14 plumber did some other fine tuning on it, but nothing really all that important, just glue and loktite here and there.Stinkyshoe said:
Either of the match models should shoot consistantly about 1MoA, right out of the box. They bedded with a unitized gas system. The standard and Loaded models don't. They can shoot good if the stock fit allows it, but chances are you'll see 2-3MoA, maybe better, and probably not all that consistant. The NM model is definitely a better value than the Supermatch.
There's plenty of guys that will tune a standard M1A and really it's not all that hard. Duff's M14 Owners Guide will give you a pretty good idea of what goes into the typical match rifle.
The match mods don't make any real compromise to reliability (you could argue that tighter headspace might, but I haven't seen that to be true in the real world).
vol_907 said:
I agree with the poster above that:
1) The .308 is probably a little anemic for use on moose or caribou
2) Taking shots at ANY game at that distance with ANY cartridge is very irresponsible.
3) An M1A is not the gun for that job anyway.
I'll disagree.
Sorry. I'll call Steaming Bovine Excrement on blanket statements like that one.
If you aren't proficient at long-range game hunting, then by all means, refrain from it. Keep the shots close in, and practice, practice, practice.
If you are indeed proficient, and have enough gun for the critter you're hunting, then knock yourself out.
I've got a freezer full of mule deer venison that was taken at a laser-ranged 587 yards last November. The rifle was a Howa 6.5x55 sporter, and the bullet was the 140gr Hornady Interlock on top of a screamer load of H4831SC. It was found under the skin on the far side shoulder, retaining 119gr.
I'm so darned irresponsible, I plan on taking this rifle out to thump bison next year, at distances where the rear vernier sight gets a workout.
VaRoadKing, I'm with you on that one:
Likewise, I noticed that 1911_Mitch blew past one of the big M14 semi-auto players: Armscorp of Baltimore, MD. The same folks Fulton Armory gets their receivers from, and an excellent choice if you want to avoid the QC problems plaguing Springfield Inc's M1A lineup.
Krieger-barreled Armscorp M14NM:
Sorry. I'll call Steaming Bovine Excrement on blanket statements like that one.
If you aren't proficient at long-range game hunting, then by all means, refrain from it. Keep the shots close in, and practice, practice, practice.
If you are indeed proficient, and have enough gun for the critter you're hunting, then knock yourself out.
I've got a freezer full of mule deer venison that was taken at a laser-ranged 587 yards last November. The rifle was a Howa 6.5x55 sporter, and the bullet was the 140gr Hornady Interlock on top of a screamer load of H4831SC. It was found under the skin on the far side shoulder, retaining 119gr.
I'm so darned irresponsible, I plan on taking this rifle out to thump bison next year, at distances where the rear vernier sight gets a workout.
VaRoadKing, I'm with you on that one:
Likewise, I noticed that 1911_Mitch blew past one of the big M14 semi-auto players: Armscorp of Baltimore, MD. The same folks Fulton Armory gets their receivers from, and an excellent choice if you want to avoid the QC problems plaguing Springfield Inc's M1A lineup.
Krieger-barreled Armscorp M14NM:
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