Any alternatives to a Para LDA?

[Quick Draw McGraw]

Are there any alternatives to the Para LDA .45 guns? I'm having a hard time coming up with many other thin, .45 ACP autos with a double action trigger. (not DA/SA) How many here carry a Glock 21? Do you guys consider that thin?

What I'm getting at is that there are many who like to carry a full-size 1911 because it is thin enough to be concealed well, yet allows you to be armed with a full/duty-sized weapon for better sight radius, recoil, reliability, etc. (And I know a main reason is the SA trigger, but there are reasons for carrying a full or commander-sized 1911, too) At the same time, there are many who don't like manual safeties on their ccw guns, and I don't want to debate cocked and locked vs. DA here.

Para makes the LDA series in various sizes, and I've read a lot of good things about the LDA being an excellent trigger. Reliability is questioned by many, however, so I am trying to think of some more reliable alternatives. I would think that there would be a good market for a reliable, 1911 sized, double action only (or LDA, LEM, QA, etc style trigger) pistol, as this would give those who prefer a double action ccw a good, full-sized, possibility.

So I'm sure I must be missing something here. Are the reliability problems with the Paras mostly just for the double stacks, perhaps the single stacks tend to be more reliable as they are more in line with JMB's original design? (I know the Paras aren't really that close to JMB's design in general, but perhaps the double stack mag thing still makes a difference.)

What about a Sig P220 that is made DAO? Are Sig's DAO triggers as good as the partially-cocked triggers? Does anyone even carry a P220 or are they significantly more difficult to carry than a 1911? I guess I'm thinking of something like a Kahr T-series or K-series in .45 ACP.

There's got to be a RELIABLE, Commander-sized, .45ACP single stack that is DAO/Partially cocked (with no "conventional or manual safety"). I hope I'm not forgetting any obvious guns. What am I missing?

 

[tomkatz]

I had a para LDA and the trigger is so light I was not comfortable carrying safety off. Off the top of my head how about a glock 36, thin, almost commander size, and no safety........tom

 

[George Hill]

What is the deal with the LDA?

Other than the technicality of the double action - all you have to do to fire it is thumb off the safety, pull the trigger. Is there really any difference between such a light trigger pull and a regular single action pull?

I see no point in the LDA system other than to make the less trained feel a little more safe because they see the hammer down. I got news for you guys that think that - the LDA's trigger is just as light as your average 1911 out of the box trigger. You are no safer.
You want safe?

Put the gun on "Safe" and keep your freaking twitching finger off the danged trigger! THAT is SAFE!

I swear, Para made that trigger as joke or something. I see absolutely no point in it...

If you like it - Fine. Whatever floats your boat. Be happy with your LDA. I just don't get it.

 

[tomkatz]

I agree george, I felt like I may as well have a single action. It was one of my stupidest gun purchases , but I did get my money out of it when I sold it .....tom

 

[Quick Draw McGraw]

I must be blind!

I don't know why, but I thought that the LDA had no manual safety. I don't know how I missed it. I just looked at a few pics and there it was! In that case, yes, why on earth would you want one of those instead of a single action only 1911? My main question still stands, though, although I can no longer consider it "an alternative to a Para LDA".

Is there any single stack .45 ACP that is comfortably "ccw-able", with no manual safety? (and not DA/SA) The Glock 36 was a good suggestion, but what if you don't like the feel of Glocks? I really like the feel of a single stack 1911, and it has been my experience that there are many who share this position. Your thoughts and other corrections?

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

para ordinance LDA's are smaller than similar slide length guns because you don't have the half inch or so of hammer sitting cocked behind the slide.

 

[STEVE M]

Didn't Smith make some of their 45's DOA and slick side? They are all

single stacks.

George, a lot of people who love the 1911 style guns are mandated by

policy to carrya DA/SA or DOA pistol. The LDA is a great gun for people like

this. Not everyone gets to carry their favorite gun, compromises must be

made.

 

[jc2]

Is there any single stack .45 ACP that is comfortably "ccw-able", with no manual safety? (and not DA/SA)

S&W 4553TSW
S&W 4583TSW
S&W 4586TSW

All are DAO. All have very, very good triggers. All are "CCW-able"--the 4553TSW, in particular.

 

[JPM70535]

I may be an abberation, but I find the Para LDAs to be just about the best carry package available in 45 acp. I know that the cocked and locked 1911 is safe to carry, and that the only way they will discharge is if the grip safety is depressed when the trigger is pulled, I know that. Problem is MURPHY, you know, the one who's law always comes into play at the most inoppertune time.

Call the DAO trigger a solution to a non existant problem if you like, just feel more at ease when I shove my Para (hammer down, manual safety engaged) in my waistband Mexican style as I sometimes do, than when I do the same with my Springfield loaded. The fully cocked and locked Springfield has a trigger pull of 3.5 pounds, versus 6 on the Para, not much I
admit, but there are times when every little bit helps, and personally I just find the dao trigger to be a more familiar feel ( years of shootng Revolvers)
than does the SA let off on SA 1911s. It just seems easier to maintain a rythem during a multi shot string.

JPM

 

[Frankly 45]

While I'm a 1911 45acp guy, I also like the idea of a DAO 45.
In answer to your question, SIG has a new DAO trigger that's not a pre-cocked affair - just an improved geometry of their original system and does'nt use the de-cocker. Don't know how available it is yet, but this system in the SIG220/SIG245 might be what you're looking for. You're also supposed to be able to convert it to regular double action if I read it correctly over at sigforums.
Good Shooting,
Frank

 

[McNutt]

Have you looked at the CZ-97? I haven't compared it to a 1911 up close, but I've heard owners swear the size difference was negligible. It has a double-action first shot.

 

[Boats]

While I am generally not a fan, I give them credit for design flexibility so here goes:

The HK USPc in .45ACP is about Commander sized.

Variant 5 is DAO with the control lever (safety lever) on left
Variant 6 is DAO with the control lever (safety lever) on right
Variant 7 is DAO with no control lever at all.

 

[45auto]

I'm a dedicated 1911 user and 45 ACP advocate, but given all the options available right now, and you don't want a Para LDA or a 1911, I'd go with a Kahr 40. Thin, steel if you wish, DAO and different sizes.

Kahr would do well with a ACP in the same format. Not to start a caliber discussion, but the 45 GAP might be an interesting option to keep the same dimensions as their 40. Unless they could do that with an ACP...not sure.

I was amazed at how light the LDA trigger is. I assume the "comfort" in a DAO gun lies in the length of the pull, not the weight...at least for this gun.
I'm not sure I see the point in a manual safety, grip safety on a DA, DAO gun. Overall I think it's an odd gun, but I'm told they sell well.

If and when Kahr introduces a 45 of some sort, I think they will be "kicking butt and taking names".

 

[gvass]

"Is there any single stack .45 ACP that is comfortably "ccw-able", with no manual safety? (and not DA/SA)"

SIG P245 in DAO config.

Compact, reliable, accurate as hell.
SIG.

 

[gvass]

"In answer to your question, SIG has a new DAO trigger that's not a pre-cocked affair - just an improved geometry of their original system and does'nt use the de-cocker. Don't know how available it is yet, "

It _is_ precocked!

The DAK trigger is nothing else, but a bobbed hammer which do not fall back totally after the slide as a normal DAO. It has a rest somewhere between the DA and the SA.
Therefore the trigger pull is between the two.

The mainspring is partially cocked after chambering.

No way to decock except a misfire, when you need a normal DA-sqeuence to try again for second strike.

 

[tomkatz]

I know alot of folks love the LDA, it just wasn't for me.
A friend of mine has a sig 245 and it is a fine gun, and not much bigger than a 239, sounds like a good option to me also.
I have often discussed kahr coming out with a 45, when the GAP emerged I thought they should jump on it and bring out a K-45GAP, but it appears from my conversations with kahr that they have no interest, time will tell on that one .......tom

 

[Quick Draw McGraw]

I just looked on HK-usa and they list the USP Compact at 1.14 in., and Kimber lists their 1911s as 1.28in. Is HK fudging and measuring from a conveniently skinny spot on the gun, or is the USP compact really that skinny? I've never seen a compact USP, but the full size one (in .40) I've seen looked significantly fatter than a 1911. Maybe my eyes are deceiving me again...

Anyway, if an HK USP compact is really that skinny, than we may be on to something here. To my knowledge they don't offer one (in .45) with an LEM trigger though. Is the LEM system significantly better than HK's regular DAO? (and is there a manual safety? I looked at th e P2000 and there's not one, but I thought I'd double check this time )

I still wonder why somebody hasn't taken JMB's excellent ergonomics and stuck a DAO or partially-cocked trigger in there, though. Of course, I'm no gunsmith, so maybe there's something I don't know that makes this impractical...

 

[longeyes]

As others have said, the Glock 36 seems to fit your requirements. Try it, it's slim.

 

[McNutt]

How's the recoil on that glock?

 

[Quick Draw McGraw]

As others have said, the Glock 36 seems to fit your requirements. Try it, it's slim.

The Glock 36 does meet my requirements, but the only two Glocks I've ever handled (an old G17 and a G30) didn't come close to the 1911 as far as feel and fit (for me) goes. That's why I was first interested in the Paras and now looking for any other guns that feel a little more "1911-ish". (I'll still give the G36 a look, but I was just hoping for some other suggestions as well.)

I've also handled a full-size USP, however, and it was pretty good. It may have been just a tiny bit too fat in the grip, though, which is why the USP Compact is interesting.

Is the USP Compact any closer than the full-size USP to a 1911 in size, and more importantly, feel ? (in the grip, especially; obviously the gun is shorter, etc)

Of course, a DAO, steel, 1911 type would be even better, I think...
(good ole' metal guns )

 

[happyguy]

A buddy has a Taurus PT-945 which seems quite light and thin and is very CCWable. Unfortunately it is DA/SA. I don't know if it's available as a DA only but I have shot it and it is a very nice weapon. I like it enough that I will probably buy or trade for one somewhere down the road.

Regards,
Happyguy

 

[longeyes]

Recoil on the G36 is surprisingly manageable. Must be polymer flex and the recoil spring design.

I haven't shot a small 1911 so I can't compare it.

 

[jercamp45]

Howdy!

I have a Para LDA Companion that I got for a Security gig that required DAO or DA w/ decocker. Up until then, my carry pieces were basically 1911's, including a customized LW Officer's model.
I looked at the Glock 36, Glock 30 and Sig .245, as I wanted one that was compact and could be used as a CCW after the security job was done. I did not look much at the Smith and Wesson .45's cause they, like the Glocks really do not fit my hand well.
I chose the LDA because it fit the mandate, fit my hand nicely, I had lots of mags, lots of holster options, alot of familiararity and training with the compact 1911, a LW Officer's as Back Up, and I LOVED that smooth trigger.
Now, I still do security work, but can carry C&L if I want, so mainly I pack my old Government model(soon to be replaced by a Colt CCO). I still have the Para, and the LW Officer's and have no problem carrying either one of them on duty or off. Though the lady in my life loves the Para as a compliment to her Kahr PM9, so I may not see it as much as I used too! BTW, everyone that has tried my Para LDA has loved it, it is very sweet...though all steel construction does make it heavy.
If C&L bother's you, get a holster with a thumbbreak for the feeling of added safety, or get something else like the DAO SIG version of the 245 or a G36, if it fits you. If Kahr make a DAO .45, I'll rent one just to check it out, but I'll stick with a C&L .45 auto for my needs. C&L IS SAFE! There are three mechanical safeties on the series 80 models, one on the Glock, none on the Sig or the Kahr. Safety is more training and mind set.
An Opinion.
Jercamp45

 

[Quick Draw McGraw]

I don't have a problem with cocked and locked, I know that it's just as safe, if not safer than DAO. Many, however, (and to be honest, I go back and forth on this issue) personally prefer a ccw gun not to have a manual safety.

I guess all I'm really saying is that it surprises me that somebody doesn't offer a gun that combines the great ergonomics of the 1911, with a full-sized, (or commander sized) yet thin frame for easier concealment, and a good DAO trigger for those who prefer it over C&L for ccw.

I read somewhere that you can send in a USP Compact .45 and have them put an LEM trigger on it, so that and the Glock 36 seem to be the only alternatives right now. Still nothing for those who prefer steel, though.

Well, I guess there are the Smiths, but all of the pictures I've seen have the slide mounted safety on the guns. I think that I've only seen DA/SA Smiths, so far though. Do the DAO guns have that manual safety on the slide? Perhaps not quite the 1911 feel, but at least they're steel... might be getting closer.

[
edit: OK, sorry, I should do a little more searching before I post. The DAO Smiths don't seem to have manual safeties. At least that's what the catalog I found sure leads me to believe. (Mr Burns)Excellent!!!(/Mr Burns)

I'm sorry for asking question after question, but I promise that this next line of questions is the last one until I think of another one. I've read good things about Smith&Wesson's DA auto triggers. Are they pre-cocked at all? How do they compare to say a Glock or LEM trigger? Also, if the S&W is pre-cocked, does it have a second-strike capability? I think that the LEM has second strike even though it's pre-cocked. Not that it matters much, how many times are you going to let it go click until you tap-rack, but it might be nice to have available, at least.

Well, I hope that this didn't break any edit-length rules, and I thank you guys for all of your help.
]

 

[jercamp45]

The USP Compact DAO...

I haver some experience with a USP in varient 1, and it has a similar feel to the 1911...but it did not seem as 'skinny' anywhere as my old Commander. The trigger seemed a bit wide during the transition from DA to SA, but that would not be an issue with a slick side DAO. The mag release would take some getting used too.
I met two LEO's with Vegas Metro that packed USP's, one liked it...one was switching. Met one packing a 7.45 LDA too, and only one packing C&L. Actually met several guys with my security company that pack C&L Colts....but Glocks dominate cop and security holsters out here.
I do understand the no safety grab and shoot desire, no personal attack intended. Think that is why the Glock and Kahr is so popular(why I like my Jay BUG too).
With Para's LDA, I like the safety system, because I am familiar with it and most bad guys are not...but mine has been more for open uniform carry...though I'd have no complaint packing it CCWother than weight, perhaps).
Jercamp45