And they were made and put together by machinist not cnc machines.
Them's the facts.
Any bad 1911's out there?
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Them's the facts.
mcdonl
Member
Don't know how I came up with that. Sorry.
That is an interesting argument. Let me me ask this, change the word 1911 for Mercedes or BMW or Rolex and then answer your own questionmcdonl said:
As has been said, there is nothing wrong with that. We only point out that good enough, isn't the same as good and that bad is relative to your expectations.
We agree here, these have been a constant irritation in my side...and it pains me, because when Kimber first came on the market, they really changed the 1911 landscape (even more than Springfield Armory)rellascout said:
Elmer said:
...and that is the criteria I use when recommending a 1911. Would you bet your life on it. If it is just a toy to plink with...have at it. Competition is the gray area, so then it comes down to how serious do you want to compete
I think you'll find that kind of argument rare among serious 1911 folks. When you really learn about the 1911, there really isn't much to argue about except preferred styles of workmanship.
Any class argument I've seen usually comes from folks who want their entry level 1911s to be the same as the high end guns...or at least the high end production guns.
I guess I'm a bit younger than you. When I bought my first Commander, they didn't have the LW designation, because all Commanders had alloy frames. If you wanted a steel frame, you went with the Combat Commander.Elmer said:
I bought mine for <$400 as a duty pistol and it went straight from the store to my gunsmith to be serviceable...this was back in the days of mounting the S&W K-frame sights on the slide
rellascout
member
I agree... they simply grew to large too fast IMHO. Kimber's early guns were very well thought out. Bring you 90% of a base gun + custom work out of a semi-production line setting. Almost every single production 1911 on the market with a true beavertail, night sights and front serrations need to tip their hat to Kimber. IMHO.
Todays Kimber is not built like this anymore....
I remember looking at a Kimber like that for $575 when a plain jane Colt GM was $650
mcdonl
Member
Sir, I said GUN... not 1911... Surely you are not saying that if I cannot afford a certain model of gun that I should not own one. Not a moderator on THR?
So, lets assume you are just saying that if I cannot afford a "good" 1911 I should not own one at all. Really?
And you said this:
I know one thing for sure... I like shooting my entry 1911 better they typing about it. And I do not expect it, and have never stated that I expected it to be better then high end production guns. It is what I can afford, and even though you think I do not deserve to own one because it is not of the best quality... I do not care.
Obviously you've taken what I've posted the wrong way. Since this is a 1911 thread, I thought that's what we were discussing
If I can't afford a Benz or a BMW, I'm perfectly happy driving my Mazda or Honda. I'm saying the same thing you are, that you should get what you can afford for the job you need done.
I was saying that I would not recommend a lower end 1911 for folks who will be betting their lives on it...just as I've always held that the 1911 is a terrible general issue gun for LE. Lately I've been recommending the Sig 220 (in steel) or a S&W M&P45 (in polymer), which are both more accurate than most 1911s and stand up better to hard use
I never said you don't deserve to own a 1911, I'm just saying you should make an informed choice. What I did say was :
That's why I referred to my 4 Commanders.
I wasn't talking about my Combat Commanders........
Did those on a couple guns, but never thought they were durable enough to really carry. I lost track of how many of them I broke on my duty guns.
Though I'd give a big pile of Benjamins to get back either of the ones I had Armand do for me. House and car payments were never good for my gun collection......
Mitch from LA
Member
A few years back, I decided to purchase my first handgun. I desperately wanted a 1911, but feared I could not afford a "good-one". I talked to a friend of my father in law's who had owned several over the years, and apparently several high-end ones.
He recommended a Taurus PT-1911. I researched the gun and found many glowing reviews. Perhaps it's not a Les Baer, but it was a fine choice for a grad-student that wanted a reliable, accurate firearm.
I made what I consider an informed decision and I like the PT-1911 more than any other gun I own (including my Super Black Eagle II). Perhaps you (all) can see why folks denouncing "low-end" guns that many of us use and love, and calling us ill-informed can be a tad annoying
He recommended a Taurus PT-1911. I researched the gun and found many glowing reviews. Perhaps it's not a Les Baer, but it was a fine choice for a grad-student that wanted a reliable, accurate firearm.
I made what I consider an informed decision and I like the PT-1911 more than any other gun I own (including my Super Black Eagle II). Perhaps you (all) can see why folks denouncing "low-end" guns that many of us use and love, and calling us ill-informed can be a tad annoying
wonderfvl
Member
1+ on staying away from Para. I had a Slim Hawg. Couldn't get through a whole magazine without jams.
You know, even some of the worst guns ever made, have satisfied customers. I've owned several guns that were more reliable, or more accurate, than reports from those who have worked with great numbers of them would indicate. I have a couple of Mini 14's that will shoot close to an inch at 100 yards. I don't resent those who have not seen that as the norm. I just consider myself fortunate.
gun addict
Member
okay, so what about the GI 1911 and 1911a1 of yesteryear, obviously no one buys them to run them hard anymore, but how are their built quality compared with today's Springfield? Kimber? Rock Island? Ed Brown? Would they qualify as a pistol that can be ran hard by the experts? I really dont think so but....
Actually old GI guns, or commercial Colts, in good condition, will usually run very well with ball ammo.
LiveLife
Member
Would past owners of Auto Ordnance 1911s speak up?
I shot a range sample of Auto Ordnance some 15 years ago - OMG!
My take away was what NOT to buy in a 1911.
gun addict
Member
i would bet even today's cheap Rock Island GI 1911 is on par with the older GI 1911a1, do i have facts to back up my claim? Not really
The older guns were made with a softer steel, but it wasn't a big thing as the .45ACP isn't a high pressure round when compared to other handgun rounds. They also weren't designed to feed hollow point ammo as it didn't exist at the time. I believe the hardest steel used on 1911s today is still found on the Norinco
If you are doing a fair comparison, as opposed to abused US Military 1911s, you'll find a lot more handwork in the old Commercial Colts. You have to bear in mind that they were built at a time when handwork was cheaper than machine work.
I remember seeing the fit of an old Colt and being amazed at how well the magazine fit into the frame...meaning that the magazine fit flush, there was no overhang or gap. I asked how you adjusted mags to fit that way and the gunsmith laughed. He told me that a person on the production line had magazines of different lengths and just test fitted them to the gun until they found the correct length. On a correct custom build, you adjust the frame by welding and filing
If you are doing a fair comparison, as opposed to abused US Military 1911s, you'll find a lot more handwork in the old Commercial Colts. You have to bear in mind that they were built at a time when handwork was cheaper than machine work.
I remember seeing the fit of an old Colt and being amazed at how well the magazine fit into the frame...meaning that the magazine fit flush, there was no overhang or gap. I asked how you adjusted mags to fit that way and the gunsmith laughed. He told me that a person on the production line had magazines of different lengths and just test fitted them to the gun until they found the correct length. On a correct custom build, you adjust the frame by welding and filing
WardenWolf
member
Well, I'll give you the head's up on how my new nickel-plated Rock Island Armory 1911 Tactical shoots once I get it out to the range. I've yet to hear a single bad thing about RIA guns. The fit and finish on this thing is incredible, though. Some of the black metal parts are so smooth you think they're plastic. Only the temperature lets you know it's real steel. I've had it fully apart for cleaning to get the gallon of factory oil out of it, and I've yet to see anything that would give me pause. I've worked on my father's 1972 Colt Combat Commander so I have something good to compare it to. This seems to be a much tighter gun overall. It was also a lot easier to reassemble without causing an "idiot mark".
mcdonl
Member
Sorry I started this whole mess. I was just trying to say that an entry level gun may not be a fine tuned fighting pistol, and it may not get 50K rounds of hard service but it is not junk.
I agree with Elmer that the majority of the 1911's in production are not finely tuned fighting machines that will get 50K rounds of hard service but I do think they will fit the need of the average American gun owner just fine.
I agree with Elmer that the majority of the 1911's in production are not finely tuned fighting machines that will get 50K rounds of hard service but I do think they will fit the need of the average American gun owner just fine.
kyletx1911
Member
ME 2 rocks the 5in 5k in it the 4in 4.5k and the colt mkiv80 3k in it both the rocks are what
ppl call low end but for a total of less than a grand i will run with them. The colt cost a little more bot all have idiot scratches wear and all are in my edc rotation. So for me no bad 1911s yet(b.t.w) i drive em like i stole em
ppl call low end but for a total of less than a grand i will run with them. The colt cost a little more bot all have idiot scratches wear and all are in my edc rotation. So for me no bad 1911s yet(b.t.w) i drive em like i stole em
kazzxtrismus
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I dont know anyone on this board yet as I'm too new...
but that being said... there is a lot of gun elitists out there (in th world not just web)
I have a friend of mine who spouts about how spending less than $1-2k on a gun is a waste and or "for losers"
this from a guy who doesn't own a home, have a wife or kid nor did he have a car payment until recently.
he can practically trip over $2k in a single day.... working for his dad as an industrial plumber/fabricator as the 4th generation in the family business.
he points and laughs directly in my face in front of others when my norinco ftf's in 14 degree f weather.
well my treatment from many others has not been better...
until....
as a MANUAL precision / macro machinist and fabricator, mitutoyo metrology grad (father was a rep), metallurgy, mechanical engineering etc etc for a background.. i grabbed some files and some sand paper and my mic's and calipers and went to town on the factory parts.
now he's quiet... and so is the range... especially when his glock ftrtb's
from what research i have done most/lots of gunsmiths dont like my norinco because they are using low grade machining bits to pound out work as fast as possible... now that sounds very Chinese to me...
not to knock them... it is business these days.. but the world has lost its pride in workmanship levels that used to exist... its a shame too
now i paint cars as employers are no longer willing to wait for quality like they used to... piece work lets me pick my quality
but that being said... there is a lot of gun elitists out there (in th world not just web)
I have a friend of mine who spouts about how spending less than $1-2k on a gun is a waste and or "for losers"
this from a guy who doesn't own a home, have a wife or kid nor did he have a car payment until recently.
he can practically trip over $2k in a single day.... working for his dad as an industrial plumber/fabricator as the 4th generation in the family business.
he points and laughs directly in my face in front of others when my norinco ftf's in 14 degree f weather.
well my treatment from many others has not been better...
until....
as a MANUAL precision / macro machinist and fabricator, mitutoyo metrology grad (father was a rep), metallurgy, mechanical engineering etc etc for a background.. i grabbed some files and some sand paper and my mic's and calipers and went to town on the factory parts.
now he's quiet... and so is the range... especially when his glock ftrtb's
from what research i have done most/lots of gunsmiths dont like my norinco because they are using low grade machining bits to pound out work as fast as possible... now that sounds very Chinese to me...
not to knock them... it is business these days.. but the world has lost its pride in workmanship levels that used to exist... its a shame too
now i paint cars as employers are no longer willing to wait for quality like they used to... piece work lets me pick my quality
It's not CNC parts, as long they use the same steel as in the old days....
In fact, CNC parts are more to spec, than doing it the old way....
Those powder parts have a lot of problems with air bubbles, bad batches, and less strong than milled parts....
What I see is wrong with new guns, is there is little or no hand fiting, except with the custom guns.....
Just some stoning, in the right places made a couple of my guns, from a total junk, to a smooth great gun....
Yes, they should come that way, but the manfacturers are cutting corners....
If I bought a new 1911, I would replace those powder parts with milled, and do some hand fitting.....
In fact, CNC parts are more to spec, than doing it the old way....
Those powder parts have a lot of problems with air bubbles, bad batches, and less strong than milled parts....
What I see is wrong with new guns, is there is little or no hand fiting, except with the custom guns.....
Just some stoning, in the right places made a couple of my guns, from a total junk, to a smooth great gun....
Yes, they should come that way, but the manfacturers are cutting corners....
If I bought a new 1911, I would replace those powder parts with milled, and do some hand fitting.....
rellascout
member
What sounds chinese about mass producing something consumers want? If that is chinnese then the US was the China of the day after WWII.
People forget the fact that 9mmepiphany has pointed out once.
The low waged, yet skilled labor of the US was not used because of pride. It was used because of cost. We were cheaper than the rest of Europe. Bombs did not destroy our major cities. We had tons of raw labor which we turned into skilled labor replacing the more expensive "old world craftsman". It was not love of hand fitting that necessitated this model it was cost. The cost of machinery far outweighted the cost of labor. As that changed you saw more and more machines which has positives and negatives. Now without machines the majority of products would never be produced. If they were produced at all they would be cost prohibitive for most of us. If this was not the case most of us would not be driving cars. We would not be on computers typing on the internet.
I also disagree about smiths not wanting to work on Norks. At one time Norks were some of the only guns that Wilson Combat would work on. A lot of smiths don't like them because of the hardness of the steel used for the frame and slide are very hard on their tools. Milling a Nork slide can do a number on the equipment.
The internal parts are much softer and as you stated not as nicely finished. Most top smiths would swap them out on a custom job because there are better starting points than the ones inside.
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kazzxtrismus
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rellascout said "
What sounds Chinese about mass producing something consumers want? If that is Chinese then the US was the China of the day after WWII. "
sorry i think you misunderstood my post a bit..
i was speaking of gunsmith's vs smiff's these days...and MY experience with them.
smiff's call my gun a cheap "whatever" and then plan on using sub grade tooling in their attempt to improve it...
this is more a comment of disdain for the hypocrisy, as there are many good and great smiths out there who will use good tooling and feed slowly and do careful hand fitting on anything you give them... as they have pride in their workmanship... even on a cheap trigger job.... care = quality
otherwise i think were on the same page.
also as a note... metals have improved immensly since the wwII era.
poweder metallugy produces some of the finest grades of metal these days...
MIM is not a powder metallurgy product... it is plastic injection moulding process adapted to a metal.. more like casting.
the parts are rarely of a forged and precision machined grade.although well toleranced.. also MIM parts are a fine granule not powder...
powder metals are suuper high qaulity, often tool steel vanadiam based and made in a completely different fashion.
one of my previous employers info here:
http://www.bucorp.com/files/pm_tool_steels_metalformingmagazine03.pdf
What sounds Chinese about mass producing something consumers want? If that is Chinese then the US was the China of the day after WWII. "
sorry i think you misunderstood my post a bit..
i was speaking of gunsmith's vs smiff's these days...and MY experience with them.
smiff's call my gun a cheap "whatever" and then plan on using sub grade tooling in their attempt to improve it...
this is more a comment of disdain for the hypocrisy, as there are many good and great smiths out there who will use good tooling and feed slowly and do careful hand fitting on anything you give them... as they have pride in their workmanship... even on a cheap trigger job.... care = quality
otherwise i think were on the same page.
also as a note... metals have improved immensly since the wwII era.
poweder metallugy produces some of the finest grades of metal these days...
MIM is not a powder metallurgy product... it is plastic injection moulding process adapted to a metal.. more like casting.
the parts are rarely of a forged and precision machined grade.although well toleranced.. also MIM parts are a fine granule not powder...
powder metals are suuper high qaulity, often tool steel vanadiam based and made in a completely different fashion.
one of my previous employers info here:
http://www.bucorp.com/files/pm_tool_steels_metalformingmagazine03.pdf
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