Any California updates?

[Slater]

What's the status of the proposed California law requiring serial numbered bullets?

 

[QuickDraw]

Any California updates?

We're still here!

I think it goes to Arnies desk in September.
I could be wrong,I often am.

QuickDraw

 

[Doctor Suarez]

Maybe it's wishful thinking, but I believe these have VETO written all over them. They're going to be used as cudgels against Arnie. He'll veto them, because they're insane, totally unworkable, and they'd finally get Red California off its ass and into the voting booths.

As it stands, he's vetoed every anti-gun bill sent his way except the .50 ban. And many of them were a LOT less toxic than this one.

But, once Arnie is up for reelection in 2006, the ads will start running:

"Governor Schwarzenegger vetoed innovative, common-sense gun control legislation that would have ENDED MURDER IN CALIFORNIA FOREVER." Arnold Schwarzenegger wants to Terminate your children. Vote Angelides."

That, plus the lies they're spreading about his education budget, means he's going to have a tough time staying in office. Still, while the legislature is gerrymandered, the red parts of California are growing faster than the blue parts. I think we might be okay.

 

[DeseoUnTaco]

Yeah, I have a hunch that these bills will make it to Der Guv's desk. To someone who hasn't throught it through, they really do sound reasonable. Like many other things, they sound less reasonable when you think them through. They will mean building entirely new factories (really), designing and building new ammo loading machines (the old ones cost hundreds of thousands of dollars already), and also building a completely new high-security bonded supply chain, all the way from the factory to the dealer's sales counter. None of that can happen and none of it will happen.

Der Guv took some flak on the 50 cal thing, and that's really quite a minor thing, given how few of us actually own or want to own 50 cal rifles. This is a big big thing and it's a terrible idea and will end recreational shooting in CA. He might veto it.

It's tough to say which way it will go. The rest of the country had better hope this gets shot down.

 

[Doctor Suarez]

Arnie's track record on vetoing gun laws is a good one.

The .50 was a classic wedge issue. Few people want or own them, and everyone's afraid. It was on 60 Minutes TWICE!

This is a handgun ban, and Arnie has gotten enough mail from Congressmen and his fellow governors to understand that. He'll veto it. If he goes down in 06, I don't know what will happen. I do know, however, that the Dems had 6 years of Grey Davis in which they could have proposed this. They didn't. They knew it would wipe him out of office, and maybe them too.

 

[DeseoUnTaco]

Arnie is trying to take a "neutral" position on gun issues. He knows that gun rights are a traditional Republican position and he knows that there are many gun owners in CA and he wants our votes. But he also wants to get support from independent voters and Democrats, too.

You're right about the 50 cal issue being a classic wedge. So few people care about them and he can get some support from anti-gun-extremists by supporting it.

As you say, these bills are a de facto ban on handguns and recreational shooting, so he might take a saner position on them.

One big factor that's coming up, and which will have a big effect on California and on the national level is California's upcoming redistricting. CA is quite gerrymandered right now, so most of the seats (both Congress and state assembly) are safe, uncontested seats. Our "representatives" are not very representative of us because of this gerrymandering situation. Arnie is trying to get the state redistricted which could have a profound impact on California's state government and also the 44 (?) representatives we send to the House, and could therefore have some national-level impact, too. I have no idea how this is going to play out, and I don't fully understand the special election redistricting bill that's coming up, but I think it's important. Based on what I know so far, I'm going to vote "yes" on the redistricting.

 

[R.H. Lee]

Serial numbers? We don't need no steenking numbers as long as we got wheelweights and molds.

 

[DeseoUnTaco]

Serial numbers? We don't need no steenking numbers as long as we got wheelweights and molds.

Oh, if you want to get rid of these serial numbers you don't even need that. This law is so utterly stupid. Drive a few hours to Nevada and buy it. Buy some serialized ammo, get a bullet puller, pull the bullet, rub it on a rough surface, and re-crimp it. Criminals could also steal some, or buy it from their criminal logistics friends.

And hey, what do you think would happen if criminals get into the whole reloading thing? Well, if they're going to go to the trouble of loading their own illegal ammo, they might as well go all the way and start making steel-core handgun ammo. Police fatalities have gone down steadily since they started wearing vests. If criminals start reloading and figure out about steel-core or tungsten-core ammo, all these vests will be as effective as a t-shirt. So if this law gets more criminals into the handloading hobby, it could have some dangerous effects for our LEOs.

Ok, posession of unserialized bullets outside the home would be a crime, but police would be helpless to do anything. Are they going to get a warrant to take apart and examine every piece of ammo someone has? You could be walking around with unserialized ammo and there's nothing they can do about it until a bullet shows up in a crime.

This law is a solution that won't work to a problem that doesn't exist.

 

[Rosey]

I've got a thread going at ARFCOM on SB 357 and AB 352. I'm doing my best to keep it up-to-date. To the best of my knowledge, SB 357 will next be heard before the Assembly Appropriations Committee. AB 352 will be heard before the Senate Appropriations Committee. Dates are unlear at this time, but it should be fairly soon.

For updates, contact information (legislatures and the ammo companies), links to the complete amended text of the bills, and other info please visit THIS THREAD.

thanks

 

[seed]

While these two assinine proposals are quite visible and contested, how in the hell did it pass that ALL handguns in California will require mag disconnects in '06 and loaded chamber indicators in '07? How did these sneak through?

 

[Rosey]

While these two assinine proposals are quite visible and contested, how in the hell did it pass that ALL handguns in California will require mag disconnects in '06 and loaded chamber indicators in '07? How did these sneak through?

***? Where can I go to read up on those two gems?

ETA: SB 489

 

[Don of Kalifornia]

His Grayness signed the diconnect/load inducator into law before he got recalled. The bill requiring disconnects/load indictors was introduced/pushed threw by Paul Koertz a person I think is more dangerous and more bigoted than even Don Perata.

 

[DeseoUnTaco]

by Paul Koertz a person I think is more dangerous and more bigoted than even Don Perata

He means well. He's very active in foolish animal welfare bills, too. He had a bill that would prohibit veterinarians from declawing cats.

He's right, veterinarians shouldn't declaw cats. It's not humane to do that. But that's something that the veterinarian boards should decide and regulate themselves; the state has far more important things to be working on.

I'm bringing this up as an example that I think Koretz means well and wants to make the world a safe, non-violent place and he thinks his laws will achieve that. He's in the category of "needs more information".

To take a contrasting example, I think Sen. Feinstein does not mean well. I think she wants to make the world a worse place. She is well-informed and she knows what the consequences of her actions are. Paul Koretz is not like that.

 

[Surefire]

Good to know about the stupid mag disconnect law. Guess I'll have to buy another semi-auto before 06....I will NOT buy them after. Mag disconnects are junk IMO, they often lead to worst trigger pull IMO, and worst prevent a gun from firing if the Magazine fails to lock.

Regarding the stamping of empties....someone can be framed for murder if a BG picks up empties at a range and then puts the empties at a crime scene. When this passes, I will use exclusively revolvers so that I can control that I have every empty accounted for. Which brings up another question, where does one dispose of empties so that they can never be used for framing. Do we take the empties to the local police station?

Finally, when they serialize bullets, this will also lead to framing. All it takes is for someone to steal your LIVE bullets (not out of the question considering the growing theft problem), and then use them in a crime.

 

[Librarian]

Paul Koretz is not like that.

Mr. Koretz has been informed quite clearly of the consequences of passing his bills. He knows. As much as I would wish it different, I cannot ascribe the persistent introduction of bills relating to guns in California to the stupidity/lack of information of the legislators.

 

[pbhome71]

The bill passed Assembly commitee, but doesn't it have to pass the Assembly too?

I hope it passed. If it does, I probably will have to ditch all my .22 rifles. Sigh... For handguns, I'll reload. The incremental cost for reloading should not be that much.

I hope that manufacturer set-up a special manufacturing line for these goverment agencies and charge handsomely for it. A dollar more per round, at least, will be a good thing.

From SB 357 analysis:

The California Highway Patrol, Department of Corrections and local law enforcement agencies purchase an estimated 60 million rounds of handgun ammunition each year. SB 357's half-cent fee on each round sold will increase law enforcement ammunition costs by an estimated $300,000 annually. Ammunition costs to state and local agencies could increase as well if manufacturers raise their prices to offset increased manufacturing costs associated with serialization requirements.

-Pat

 

[DeseoUnTaco]

The California Highway Patrol, Department of Corrections and local law enforcement agencies purchase an estimated 60 million rounds of handgun ammunition each year. SB 357's half-cent fee on each round sold will increase law enforcement ammunition costs by an estimated $300,000 annually. Ammunition costs to state and local agencies could increase as well if manufacturers raise their prices to offset increased manufacturing costs associated with serialization requirements.

Talk about optimism! I think the real figure will be $60mil or more, if the ammo is available at all. Also, wouldn't a box of cop-owned ammo be the ultimate thing to steal to frame someone? How do they plan to secure SIXTY MILLION ROUNDS OF AMMO every year? They have a few guns stolen every year already.

 

[magsnubby]

Its not all handguns that will be required to have mag disconnects and loaded chamber indicators. Both bills include a grandfather clause. It only applies to newly introduced simi autos. Anything on the market now will still be legal.

And they didn't sneak through. They were both widely publicized.

 

[DeseoUnTaco]

I hope that this redistricting can help us out here. We need to get these stupid laws off of our books. The only hope is redistricting, or perhaps intervention from the Supreme Court.

 

[Rosey]

The bill passed Assembly commitee, but doesn't it have to pass the Assembly too?

Yes it does. Actually, the bill has passed through the Senate committee hearings and a Senate floor vote. Now it must pass through the Assembly committee hearings and then a Assembly floor vote.

Right now SB 357 is still in Assembly committee hearings. Only after the Assembly votes in the affirmative will it make it to the Governor's desk for veto or signing.

Most people agree that it will make it to the Governor's desk...I have not lost hope and I strongly encourage everyone to keep trying to stop this bill at each step.

To pass out of the Senate, the bill needed 21 YES votes. The vote was 21 YES and 18 NO. Senator Machado, a Democrat, did not vote. Ducheny and Florez voted NO. They are both Democrats.

My point is we must keep fighting this! Don't assume your Democratic Senator or Assemblymen is a lost cause!

 

[DeseoUnTaco]

My point is we must keep fighting this! Don't assume your Democratic Senator or Assemblymen is a lost cause!

Absolutely correct! Even if your Senator or Assemblyman is a lost cause, write to him anyway. These guys are smart about where they spend their "political capital" and if they see that they have pro-freedom people in their own districts, they will be aware of it. Even if they only get a handful of letters, they know that there is opposition to this nonsense from within their own districts.

And clearly, Republicans have no monopoly on gun rights and Democrats have no monopoly on gun banning. This is a non-partisan issue.

 

[riverdog]

Oh, if you want to get rid of these serial numbers you don't even need that. This law is so utterly stupid. Drive a few hours to Nevada and buy it. Buy some serialized ammo, get a bullet puller, pull the bullet, rub it on a rough surface, and re-crimp it. Criminals could also steal some, or buy it from their criminal logistics friends.

And hey, what do you think would happen if criminals get into the whole reloading thing? Well, if they're going to go to the trouble of loading their own illegal ammo, they might as well go all the way and start making steel-core handgun ammo. Police fatalities have gone down steadily since they started wearing vests. If criminals start reloading and figure out about steel-core or tungsten-core ammo, all these vests will be as effective as a t-shirt. So if this law gets more criminals into the handloading hobby, it could have some dangerous effects for our LEOs.

Ok, posession of unserialized bullets outside the home would be a crime, but police would be helpless to do anything. Are they going to get a warrant to take apart and examine every piece of ammo someone has? You could be walking around with unserialized ammo and there's nothing they can do about it until a bullet shows up in a crime.

This law is a solution that won't work to a problem that doesn't exist.

The problem with this idea is that since there won't be any major companies making serialized ammo, any handgun ammo would automatically be suspect. So they search your ammo, find that it isn't serialized, arrest you, and convict you or plea bargain a felony for a suspended sentence with no jail time. The idea is to make felons out of gun owners, not reduce crime. Once the gunowner is a felon, he's a felon nationwide, not just in CA. He is no longer authorized to be a gunowner and he's an ex gunowner/Republican/Libertarian who can't even vote.

 

[Doctor Suarez]

Technically, at least, pure possession of the ammunition is a misdemeanor, punishable by a fine.

It's the importation that will get you in real trouble.

 

[Buck Snort]

Has the governor made any comments about whether or not he intends to vetoe this crap?