Any good debaters in the house?

Status
Not open for further replies.

ceetee

Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2003
Messages
1,998
To debate this guy here?

Ralph de la Cruz

I'm sure there's somebody out there who can tell our side of the story way beter than I can... And can you do it without all of the "excrement" references?

I hate that... Any time a newspaper columnist writes an editorial (remember, it's not based on fact... just his opinion) his followup is always about all the jarheads that wrote in to insult him, insult the HCI folks... you get it.

Remember... An idiot is never an idiot in his own eyes. If you can see their viewpoint, and get past the personalities involved, you can make your argument more clearly and more persuasively than just calling names.

That being said... Is there anybody on here that would care to lay out our side of the story? I'm sure there's somebody who can do it better than I...
 
A lack of a ban didn't stop Gian Luigi Ferri from walking into a law office and, using two TEC-DC9 guns with a "Hell-Fire" trigger system that spit out 100 bullets a minute, killing nine in San Francisco.

"Hell-Fire" trigger system? WTH?

edited to add: Nevermind, looked it up. Had nothing to do with the gun, as I suspected.
 
Gun owners, please note: I didn't say it was the beginning of a move to get rid of all guns.

Of course you're not foolish enough to actually SAY that, but if anyone believes that it's NOT a move to get rid of all guns, they have their head buried so far in the sand that they could sip from the water table.

Although I wouldn't have put it so harshly, I agree with the writer of the opening quote to his article. He really needs to take a good look around at what the agendas of the folks who would place more restrictions on gun owners.

I would reply to him with two words:

WAKE UP!
 
My email to Ralph

Ralph,

Where to begin?

So you’re pro moderate gun control I gather? You’ve shot firearms before, know that they alter your personality to the point where you were a raving madman when you held them or were around them, right? Probably not… you sound like a reasonable clear thinking writer. Only limit some but not others? Right? Not the dreaded "Cop-Killing" .30-30 Assault Weapon round usually found in Winchester lever action rifles that Ted Kennedy wanted banned?

Wished I read your Columbine editorial as well as this one. But alas, I did not. I’ll address two points only if I may be so bold…

Quote: “The scary part was that some e-mails implied, or came right out and said, the tragedy could have been averted with more well-armed teachers.

Actually, there was an armed police officer in the school. He didn't stand a chance against the massively fortified teens.†End-quote.

Did he try? Where was he? At the source of the trouble or helping assist others to safety? I’m not implying that he wasn’t where he should have been, but if he had a gun in his holster that day and was trained to use it, why did he Not? Was he a real street cop or a trained armed security guard the school board hired for show?

I do believe that in at least two school shooting’s in the past few years, I’ve read that a principal stopped one after going and retrieving his own handgun from his car, parked off campus… Pearl MS, I believe.

The second was in the Appalachian School of Law shooting where two students who were LE went and retrieved their firearms from their vehicles, confronted and held the bad guy for the local LE.

I do remember reading somewhere about Israeli schools having problems with rifle toting bad guys harming the school kids there, until the Israelis decided to arm the teachers, but that could just be wishful thinking on my part.

My dear old Dad always said, “you never need a pistol until you need it badly.†Like insurance or a fire extinguisher, “I’d rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have itâ€. Your mileage might vary. I don’t worry about good guys with guns, like 99% of those owned in the US. It’s the ones who don’t care about their own life, rules or society and will probably end up dead or incarcerated due to their behavior, having hurt or killed one or more innocent non-firearm-owning victims in the process of their decay, that tend to cause concern. Like Klebold, Harris and Ferri.

Quote: “Unfortunately, the NRA has allowed the extreme element of its organization to set its agenda, which has basically become blanket opposition to any and all forms of gun control.

And that's the problem in this debate. It's being held on the extremes. No gun control. Or total gun control.†End-quote.

I always thought that the NRA has helped craft and enact just about each and every piece of gun control legislation this country has passed, trying of course to minimize the damage and keep total firearm registration and confiscation of law abiding citizen's arms from occurring. Misguided they may be (depending on whose Ox is being gored at the moment), they harken back to the words imposed oh so many years ago about living in a free state, where all citizens are part of the militia and as such Congress shall not infringe upon the right to keep and bear arms. Of course those words were written before we had a standing army or a National Guard or local police forces and most good American colonists had some distrust in governing bodies since they’d seen what can happen when laws get passed willy nilly or the wrong person comes into power and decides to expand that power to the point of oppression. I'm sure they never foresaw gun control's ultimate effect, genocide of the unarmed masses. That's more of a 20th century thing.

Quote: “Gun owners, please note: I didn't say it was the beginning of a move to get rid of all guns.†End-quote.

Ralph, you don’t have to say what is obvious to millions. Someone wiser than me once said, “For some, no explanation is required… for others, no explanation will do.†(OK it was my Dad)

Quote:, "Passing a law like the assault weapons ban is a symbolic - purely symbolic - move in that direction. Its only real justification is not to reduce crime but to desensitize the public to the regulation of weapons in preparation for their ultimate confiscation." -- Charles Krauthammer, columnist, 4/5/96 Washington Post

Was Krauthammer right in his opinion? Are you? Am I? HCI? NRA?

I remember WHY Paul Revere rode that night in April 1775. (He didn’t get too far before he was caught) Do you? What were the British coming for?

Keep up the thought provoking journalism Ralph. I'm sure the responses you get make worthy fodder for more editorials.

Sincerely,

Robert E Ballew,
Las Vegas NV
 
Baba Louie, very nicely put. But there is much obsession about the tools of the BGs. One outstanding point about Columbine ,which should be repeated over and over, is that in the two years before the incident there had been FIFTEEN contacts between the authorities and the BGs. As is often the case the warning signs were there but were ignored !!!
 
I've read several articles, letters to the editor and commentaries in the last week that are trying to portray the NRA leadership as extreme and out of step with their the majority of their membership. In fact, their have been several letters to the editor that say to the effect of "I quit the NRA because the leadership took on an extreme militaristic stand."

Sounds like some new talking points have been issued from Ceasefire, HCI, VPC or Brady Bunch......must be their latest strategy....divide and conquer the NRA:fire:
 
There you are:

Dear Ralph,

I see by your editorial of 25 April that you are trying to hold the middle ground in the gun control debate. As I’m sure you’re aware, attempting such a position in any sphere, whether it is issues of free speech, or automobile features, or firearms, is an attempt to balance personal freedom and responsibility against the needs of society.

Such a project truly sounds appealing: What could possibly be wrong with acting to prevent a tragedy before it happens? Why wait until someone is killed or maimed to take positive action to stop it? Why wait to only punish after a terrible crime, when it is far too late to save the victims? Why shouldn’t we act now? Isn’t it true, as some people say: “If it saves even one life, it is worth it.�

You might recall a recent movie that addressed this exact moral dilemma, Minority Report, starring Tom Cruise, (2002) where in the Washington, D.C., of 2054, a technologically advanced Department of Pre-crime has been created to detect and prevent murders before they're committed. Quite a seductive idea, especially as the technology has been worked out so that no one’s freedom is infringed until just seconds before a murder is committed. But even there, we find that there is something insidiously wrong with discarding the venerable bedrock principle of the presumption of innocence.

Likewise, the present-day idea of removing death-dealing tools from the hands of the guilty seems a good idea – except that laws that criminalize innocent behavior that harms no one, in order to prevent crimes, effectively presumes guilt on the part of millions of innocent persons. “All persons who buy guns are madmen or felons, lacking only the proper tool to erupt into child-killing violence,†says such a policy, and either as such must prove their innocence in advance (in the case of handguns,) or simply cannot ever be trusted in society with such a tool, as in the case of the ban on “assault weapons.â€

Such a position involves restraining and limiting the actions of law abiding citizens who have harmed no one in the past, are harming no one now, and will harm no one in the future - an incredible supermajority of the population who will never commit a crime in their entire lives. It determines that the amount of liberty that innocent men and women may possess depends not on their own upstanding conduct at all -- but on the depraved behavior of the lawless. The law will permit the innocent to possess only those freedoms and liberties that criminals will allow.

It is horrific to allow the fear of crime, and the naked craving for safety, to turn the law into a bludgeon that oppresses the law-abiding and the innocent. But it is even worse to do so only on the basis of misinformation and ignorant fears.

If you were told that certain sinister passenger cars, by virtue of the fact that they had black paint, power brakes, and a center armrest, were to be banned from sale in the entire U.S. because “these features made it easier to drive around at night and run over pedestrians,†you would think it insane. You would think it even more bizarre if when manufacturers removed these “dangerous†features, that politicians and special interest pressure groups screamed that the carmakers were “exploiting a loophole†in the “Killer Car Ban†by continuing to make dark blue cars with standard brakes and no center armrests.

Nor would you be terribly impressed if you went to the zoo to see the Siberian Tiger only to find an animatronic tiger mannequin, and a disingenuous zoo attendant telling you “stay behind the bars†because the mannequin was “just as dangerous†as the real tiger, because it looked “really similar†to the real thing. You’d know that looking similar doesn’t make something a tiger: Only actually being a real live tiger makes something a tiger.

Likewise, many of those millions of law-abiding men and women who are forbidden by law from buying a thing called an “assault weapon,†because of the Assault Weapon Ban, know that the weapons banned by this legislation are banned on the basis of cosmetic differences. These differences make these weapons no more dangerous from any other “ordinary, household†semi-automatic guns than the functional difference between black cars, and dark blue cars. They know that no one semi-automatic gun is inherently more dangerous than any other semi-automatic gun, even if one is made up to look identical to a scary fully-automatic machine gun. That “assault weapon†isn’t a term that has any real meaning, except “those particular things on a list that we choose to call assault weapons.â€

And thus, they are told not only that they are potential, not-yet-discovered but under suspicion criminals, but that the difference between them and criminals is merely a matter of cosmetics, not substance. They are frequently reviled for attempting to point out that a cosmetic feature such as a small lug of metal that can attach a knife is no more the proper determination of whether a gun is a machine gun (German: Sturmgewehr; storm rifle; or assault rifle) than is the zoo assistant’s resolve that “real hair†whiskers make the zoo mannequin a real tiger.

You say that “the assault weapons ban is only the beginning of the attempt to rid our society of these insidious weapons,†but that “I didn't say it was the beginning of a move to get rid of all guns.†Yet, if the government banned black hatchback cars allegedly to prevent killings, you’d know that there was no logical step between banning black hatchback cars, and dark blue hatchback cars, and dark brown hatchback cars, and in fact almost any cars at all.

You’d also know that you were personally innocent of any wrongdoing, entitled to recognition that you were an upstanding, responsible, and honest member of society, and absolutely entitled to the presumption of innocence. You would know that the concept of keeping all “dangerous†objects away from people is the project of making responsibility, maturity, and lawfulness utterly irrelevant in society, because the assumption underlying these laws is that the mass of people WILL be lawless, but will be magically defeated by a lack of “suitable†tools.

Thus, we wonder, and perhaps you should wonder too: How can we possibly serve the needs of making society a safer place by treating innocent law-abiding citizens as criminals under constant suspicion, and by making self-control, honor, and responsibility irrelevant in society? How can individuals be held responsible for their harm to others, if the operant assumption of the law and the government is that personal responsibility no longer exists?

And that, my friend, is why there exists no middle ground in the gun control debate.

Sincerely,

Dexter Sinister
Chico, CA
 
Last edited:
I find absolutely no use trying to convince someone like this.

What they need to do is spend a few days in Warsaw.. Then they might "get it".

I find it like trying to explain what ice is to the people who live in the middle of Africa.. No matter how much you explain, they won't get it.
 
Dexter:

That's exactly what I would have said, if I had thought of it first...And exactly the kind of response I was hoping for! You have my sincerest thanks!
 
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
pendentive: but not a master-debater like some of these guys.....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But truly a cunning linguist.

Sorry, I could not resist. A 1000 acts of contrition:evil:
 
but not a master-debater like some of these guys.....

Amateurs are welcome too!

Dex sinister's response was very good, and is the line of arguement we should adopt more often. Gun control means mass punishment of the innocent for the crimes of the lawless and evil. It means giving up any hope of creating a civil society. Instead, we are told we have to render our fellow citizens incapable of doing harm, on the assumption that they nothing more than potential criminals.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top