Any negatives about adding a laser?

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LGer

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Guys...

I am thinking about adding a laser to my Kahr PM9. I think that it would be very helpful to me in quickly acquiring a target if needed. I can see many positives in adding one but there is one question that I just can't shake.

In your opinion is it possible for a BG to determine your location from your light? A scenario that I envision as being entirely possible would be for an attacker to come at me (evening, armed), I would run for cover behind a car, and get into a shootout.

Is it possible that the laser would be an aid to the BG in determining my position in defending myself? I know that there is a very slim chance of this ever happening but is this a concern for any of you?

Thanks in advance!
 
I know that there is a very slim chance of this ever happening but is this a concern for any of you?
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No. I decided last night I want a small, lightweight revolver with a laser. I haven't owned a laser in some time.

The only time my laser would have ever "gave away my position" is if it were smokey or there was fog in the air. Also, if they are directly in front of your laser they will see the red dot as a point of origin. If they are directly in front of you and there is enough light for you to identify your target (that's the only way we have our gun drawn, right?), well then they already see you or see where your light is coming from. It is really hard for me to envision gun battles in total darkness. If it is that dark and I feel an intruder is near, I need to be lighting up the area with my flashlight or some other source instead of fumbling around in pitch black hoping to bump into someone to shoot.

I've never trained to use a DAO revolver in a self defense role. The laser will help me with dry firing and trigger control.

Just my 2 cents, YMMV... :)
 
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The only negative on having a laser on your defensive firearm is if you develop the habit of using it as a crutch when practicing, instead of concentrating on sight picture. The laser, being an electrical/mechanical device, can fail, and Murphy's Law dictates that it will fail right at the worst possible time. :uhoh:

Mount your laser and practice with it, but devote at least an equal amount of time and ammo to point shooting and using your sights. ;)

FWIW, all of my defensive handguns have lasers on them. I wouldn't be without one. Remember, like your handgun, "It's always better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it!" :cool:
 
Unless it's a grip type laser (ie crimson trace) the extra attached laser is just something to snag and get in the way. There is no way I'd ever want a cheap laser clamped to a handgun. I'd also worry about installing a guide rod laser because that might be less durable.

If you're going to do it, do it right.
 
I'd also worry about installing a guide rod laser because that might be less durable.
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I've also wondered how the heck a guide rod laser maintains zero after you strip it and put it back in?

I' also failed to mention that I feel a laser should be an aide, not something you learn to depend on. It does require batteries, after all. They also seem to be difficult to acquire in direct sunlight if you are under stress. I had a beretta 96 with CT grips. They were great, but my self defense training was inadequate when I had them. I'd be interested to see how the CT grips would benefit me now that I am a better shooter and better trained when it comes to self defense.
 
The big negative I see with adding a laser is, honestly, using the laser.

Lasers can teach you things about your technique if you know how to evaluate what you're seeing, but their use as a primary sighting tool is largely fundamentally at odds with good handgunning practices in that they teach you, encourage you, (some would say force you) to look over your sights to find that red dot on the target, which is exactly the opposite of how you should be sighting a handgun. Remember, front sight, front sight, front sight! Your focus isn't supposed to be on the target, and certainly not peering past your sights to find a glowing dot on it somewhere.

A trainer of my acquaintance recently told me of some very long-term experiments he had performed with shooters of various skill levels to try and see what an equally-trained person was able to accomplish with lasers vs. iron sights. The results were disappointing as the shooters, when tested under "defensive shooting" conditions, universally shot with less speed and accuracy with the lasers, regardless of training or developed proficiency, or experience with the device. The natural instinctive coordination between the eye to the front sight and the target beyond is broken and the shooter doesn't make the shot based on the data his/her brain is best able to process. That leap of faith that lets us get that front sight centered on target and take a shot in under a second and then reacquire and shoot another aimed shot in less than 0.2 sec. is removed and instead the shooter is looking for the reassurance of the red ball which is out there, somewhere, bouncing around like a kite in the wind.

In essence, it's too much information. Instead of instinctively processing just how much precision you NEED to make the shot, your brain is forced to contend with this exceedingly specific aiming point which is flickering all over the place, in and out of view, and which every shot sends jumping off the target. It's somewhat akin to taking a running shot at a deer at 20 yards with your variable scope set on 16x -- you spend more time fighting the sighting device than tracking and shooting.

There are instances where a laser sight may be a useful alternative, but it's best to think of it that way and not get hung up in using it for primary sighting duties where it's really a millstone around your neck.
 
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The laser source is still a light source. Obviously in a smokey or dusty environment the light beam would be a guiding pointer to your gun. But even in clear air the fellow you're pointing the laser at will still see a very bright amount of scatter light that isn't actually part of the laser beam. If you have any sort of laser pointer kicking around you can see this for yourself. Have someone point it at your chest from about 5 yards away. You will easily see the light source due to the side scatter light. Or in a store with a laser you're thinking about buying turn it on and point it from arm's length down to your upper chest and see how bright the scattered light from the emmiter is. Oh sure, this side scatter is no where near as bight as the actual laser spot but I think you'll find that it's quite noticable and would be an great "Hey! I'm Over Here!" to anyone looking your way in the dark.

The only way to avoid this side scatter light is if the emmiter is at the end of a long collimator tube so the scatter can't project outwards. There may be some that are like that but I don't remember seeing any.

The other option is to have a pressure switch and to learn to use it all the time to avoid turning on the laser until the last instant so you avoid the issue.
 
The only time my laser would have ever "gave away my position" is if it were smokey or there was fog in the air. Also, if they are directly in front of your laser they will see the red dot as a point of origin. If they are directly in front of you and there is enough light for you to identify your target (that's the only way we have our gun drawn, right?), well then they already see you or see where your light is coming from. It is really hard for me to envision gun battles in total darkness. If it is that dark and I feel an intruder is near, I need to be lighting up the area with my flashlight or some other source instead of fumbling around in pitch black hoping to bump into someone to shoot.
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Great info guys - thank you very much! You've given me a lot to think about and I appreciate that. I don't think that I have ever received such a complete and well thought out reply before.

I've added the above quote from the first reply because his reply struck home as well. My concern about giving my position away seems foolish when considered in this light. The second or so that the light went on before firing (if needed) probably would make little difference. I would probably be better off to not use the laser should I find the need to fire in a low-light situation. So if I use my head and not depend on the laser in every situation I should be good to go. Makes perfect sense to me. Thank you all very much!

Leon
 
Witty saying to be plagarized shorty.....
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Love it! :D I have two reasons for coming up with this goofy scenario.

My number one choice would be to remain hidden and avoid a fight. If I were about to be discovered I am of the mindset now that to depend on the laser in this situation would be foolish. I wouldn't fire anyway until I could see "the whites of his eyes" so it wouldn't be needed.

Number two would be to take cover behind a large object. My hope is that the BG would consider the area too much of a risk to take a chance on a nobody like me and just go away. If I were under fire while running to this cover I would think that it would be to my advantage that once cover was found to keep my exact location from him. In this situation I now feel that a laser would be useless as well. I still wouldn't fire until the last possible moment.

I have seen it written many times to prepare for a situation in advance - run situations through your mind - determine what you might do. I am starting to think that this may not be a good idea for me. I have too much time on my hands (recently retired) and probably over-think these things. What is good for one may not be a good thing for all.

Anyway..... thank you for allowing me to show you what a worry-wart that I've become :eek: and again - Thank you very much for the great responses!

Leon
 
My ankle gun, a S&W 642, has a Crimson Trace lasergrip.

To start with, the sights on a 642 are a bit less than "wonderful", so in low/no light or "quick acquire" I find the laser gets me on target quicker and allows shooting from "other than a proper Weaver stance".

BUT ... I am NOT a fan of any laser that you have to "do something" to activate. I've read too many media stories of negligent discharges while the shooter was trying to find the "on" switch and ended up hitting the trigger. In a stress situation I need less complication, not more. The Crimson Trace is activated automatically when you properly hold the grip, and nothing more. All laser companies make stuff that shoots equally bright/accurate red/green beams of light. This "no thought config" is the main reason I like Crimson Trace stuff compared with the "push this tiny button inches away from your trigger during a high-stress situation" setups.

Just my 2¢
 
One Possible Advantage..

One of the advantages (if it's a home defense weapon), is if it's being used by someone who may be so-so (to somewhat familiar), with the firearm being used. I'm thinking more of a girlfriend or wife (I hope they're not both living with you at the same time.) :uhoh: :D ..or even early to mid teenagers. That way all they have to do is place the dot dead center and pull the trigger.

Single Action Six
 
OK... I've been holding out on you. I have had a CT Laser in my gun safe for a month trying to decide if I wanted to use it. You have addressed those concerns so I decided to install it a few minutes ago. It sure is a sweet piece of equipment.

I will be going to the range often and I will practice both with and without the laser. Now comes the all time stupidest question that I can think of.

Do I need to hold the pistol in an upright position. I guess what I am asking is - how does it work? Is the round supposed to go to whatever the dot is on no matter the angle of the gun? Can I stand on my head (like I could still do that :D) and shoot with the gun upside down? Could I shoot laying down with the gun at a 45 degree angle, pull the trigger and expect the round to hit the dot? I know that this sounds like a question a troll might ask but take my word for it..... I am really that stupid.

Once I learn this I will leave you be. I know that your time is valuable and I feel bad about wasting it on something like this but it is something than I would like to know.

Thanks once again guys....

Leon
 
Some people have hinted at it, but I don't think it's been stated clearly yet:
No, the laser is not visible in the air unless there are floating particles (fog, smoke, etc.) to catch the light. It's not like in the movies, where you see a red beam projected from the gun.

Bottom line, the only downside to a laser is cost and potentially bulk, depending on what model you use. I'd recommend getting one, knowing how it works, sighting in for a realistic range (~20 yards or less) then mostly forgetting about it until you're in an actual conflict. I shoot a couple mags with the laser every other range trip just to make sure it's on target, but I do almost all my practice shooting with iron sights. Shooting with the laser is idiot-proof if it's sighted in, so you don't really need to practice with it.
 
I bought them before the rebates kicked in from Optic Planet.... Think that I paid like $175 but there is a great program going on right now. They are much cheaper.
 
In my view, there is absolutely no point whatsoever in using a laser in conjunction with iron sights--it's just a distraction that offers no benefits. On the other hand, if your laser is working (i.e. it's functional and the dot is visible under the current conditions) and you like the idea of using lasers and have trained for it, then in a real defensive situation you should use only the laser to aim, ignoring your iron sights, which are there solely for backup in case of failure (or changing conditions such as stepping into bright sunlight). I think that there are advantages to focusing on the target rather than a front iron sight, and I think that optical sights such as red dots and holographic sights, which are used in a manner similar to lasers, have proven to be effective. I also think that lasers could be useful when shooting from retention, for example. One skill that seems to go well with lasers is point-shooting, as you don't want to have to look around for the reflected dot--you'd want to have it somewhere on the target from the get-go if possible.

Those who are unwilling to use the laser as a primary sight should ditch it altogether, unless they have other specific uses for it. For others I think it can be an effective tool that makes some shooters--particularly beginners--better than they otherwise would be. I've done my own experiments at home using Airsoft equipment and inexperienced family members, and got positive results with lasers. I'm considering getting some real lasers for my home defense weapons because of that, although they wouldn't help me much because I've trained so much over the past couple of years that I can reliably hit the COM at 7 yards without using any sights (indexing on the gun as soon as it reaches my visual field, with my focus on the target), which improves my speed. Everybody is different, though, and I think that laser sights can be useful tools as long as they're used properly--by themselves (unless they fail) as the primary sight.
 
Shoot a group using just the iron sights.

Hopefully the group impact at your point of aim.

If not, adjust your sights and shoot another group. If your sights do not adjust, then you can't adjust your sights. Take note of where the rounds impacted relative to the sight picture you used.

Turn your laser on and adjust it to coincide with where your iron sights are on target. If you have fixed sights, adjust the laser to coincide for the different point of impact.


Unless your laser is mounted a foot off the bore of the gun, the cant of your pistol to one side or the other, or even completely upside down is negligible. In other words, don't worry about it.


I wouldn't worry your concern about "giving away your location" either. I've seen lasers slow almost every shooter down, though. Either it bounces around too much. Or it's too bright outside to pick up. The ones who aren't slowed down by it didn't need it to make their hits, and used their sights.
 
I like using a laser/light combo. The tandem use can be used to both identify, blind, and target an intruder. But do it right. Don't use a cheapo. Surefire makes the best I know of.

On the other hand, I don't depend on either. I keep fresh batteries in there and check them from time to time. They get rotated out into daily use flashlights too.

Point shooting should be a staple with handguns, followed by sight picture. In a fight, at the ranges we are talking about, you won't have time to do anything else.

A plan works good too. If you haven't been identified by the intruder, then you can flash him, with light and laser, move to cover, then aim. The momentary disorientation will be sufficient to get the uppper hand, hopefully.

Remember, you are on home turf and he is the (unwanted) visitor. Even if he has been inside your home, he is still to the disadvantage.

I find a very bright LED light to be more than adequate. At my ranges, in the home, a focused beam (surefire makes the x200 version in wide and focused beams) almost suffices as a laser on a shotgun.

The most use for a laser I ever found was in the army. The PEQ2 and PAQ4 lasers were good to infinity (you had to adjust aim of course, and zero for 300m) and invisible to the bad guy. You could even use those to blind, via retinal burning, the bad guy without his knowledge.

Note that in houses, particularly ones with lots of mirrors, there are reflective surfaces. These will reflect laser light in a matter not consistent with diffused natural light. Ie, you can be blinded yourself. It does not have to be directly reflected back to you.

So beware. As with everything, there are ups and downs. If you do have a laser, make sure you have a plan to use it. Because of batteries, it requires maintenance and is prone to failure at the worst of times.

Again, don't get a cheap one. They won't stay zero'd and they fail under recoil. Surefire is the only one I really trust, although I have a Glock unit that works well.

Also, the weight of some laser/lights will affect the cycling of the weapon. The Glock is prone to this I hear. I haven't had problems, but I only use the Glock light on the Glock and it is much lighter than any other I have use.
 
Oh yeah, point shooting is the best way to train. Finding the right fit, as far as the weapon, is the issue usually. I find Glocks work well with me, they fit naturally. I hear others say the 1911, and I understand the German Luger is the best. I've seen accurate blindfold shots taken with this.

If you pull your hand like a wild west draw, thumb up and finger pointed, doing it as fast as you can, hold that position and move your head down to the level of your finger. You should be on target --our bodies and minds were designed for this. Believe it or not, video games enhance this.

Now using an unloaded firearm, this should be your combat dry fire practice ritual. With time, you can shoot accurately without the sights at all at short range. That is how the old timer gunslingers did it.

That pretty much rules out the laser. But like I said, I like it in tandem with the light. I find the light to be the superior add on for home defense. I think the high intensity light in combination with the firearm is the best thing since hollow points and buckshot.
 
I've no experience with using lasers on guns. Does the laser provide enough illumination to identify your target? In a really dark room, is that a perp or a family member your laser dot is on?
I would think that a tactical light would be better because it illuminates the target better. Also it would help you better outside the home in the dark of the night.

YMMV
 
Thank you BullFrog! I got my CPL probably a year or so ago now but my range time is VERY limited. I have no place to shoot except for indoor ranges. When at an indoor range I am all business and am hesitant to experiment in any manner. Gun is always straight up/down and pointed at the target. I've never experimented with the "cant" (hope that I'm using the correct word here) so I have a lot to learn. I am 62 years old and all of my experience prior to my CPL was with rifles/shotguns.

Answers like the kind that you have provided are a huge help to me. I bought the laser because I am not at all experienced with handguns and my vision is not what it once was. My intention at the time was to do exactly what the poster prior to yours, I believe, suggested and use them all of the time. I have had lasic surgery and while it worked as it was supposed to I have difficulty with my vision in certain lighting conditions (dawn/dusk like conditions). Also... I require bi-focals and when I look at the front sight my vision is blurred at a distance. I will get past all of this eventually with lots of practice but right now everything seems awkward to me.

I hate admitting ignorance but when it comes to this.... it's where I am at right now. You all have been very helpful - beyond words helpful! When I set out to do something it is either going to be done right or not done at all.

My sister has told me just recently that I may practice on her small farm if I choose. I never really thought about this until just recently - it's a VERY small farm. If I can find a safe place I am going to take her up on her offer. My experience will grow greatly with a place to experiment safely!

Leon
 
shamalama said:
My ankle gun, a S&W 642, has a Crimson Trace lasergrip.

To start with, the sights on a 642 are a bit less than "wonderful", so in low/no light or "quick acquire" I find the laser gets me on target quicker and allows shooting from "other than a proper Weaver stance".

BUT ... I am NOT a fan of any laser that you have to "do something" to activate. I've read too many media stories of negligent discharges while the shooter was trying to find the "on" switch and ended up hitting the trigger. In a stress situation I need less complication, not more. The Crimson Trace is activated automatically when you properly hold the grip, and nothing more. All laser companies make stuff that shoots equally bright/accurate red/green beams of light. This "no thought config" is the main reason I like Crimson Trace stuff compared with the "push this tiny button inches away from your trigger during a high-stress situation" setups.

Just my 2¢
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Your finger goes outside the trigger guard. That is where the switch should be located. If not, you either have junk or improperly designed equipment, which equals or exceeds junk.

You should be able to flip the switch on the way to the trigger with little to no delay. But if a bad guy is drawing or aiming at you,

POINT SHOOT!

You don't have the time to lase and glaze at that point. The laser and light are for when YOU have the drop on HIM.

This is what is meant by using it as a crutch. At this point, it is a liability. Not to sound like a Yoga or something, but you need to be the weapon, be the bullet. Point shooting is the ultimate culmintation of this. Everything else should be icing on the cake. For me, it goes: point shoot, iron sights, light, laser, in order of importance. I don't factor in stance because I have seen too many folks work on that, but in real shootings they dance around like marrionettes and shoot around corners. Stance is fine if you have the drop, or clearing a room, whatever, but you should be able to point shoot a close target while, say, leaning against a pole with one foot behind the other. To me, that is more important than stance.

Bottom line is, use the laser, but don't depend on it, and a light trumps a laser. At least to me.
 
RDF said:
I've no experience with using lasers on guns. Does the laser provide enough illumination to identify your target? In a really dark room, is that a perp or a family member your laser dot is on?
I would think that a tactical light would be better because it illuminates the target better. Also it would help you better outside the home in the dark of the night.

YMMV
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No, the laser will not identify a target. By definition, a laser is focused beam of light. So much so in fact, that the laser usually appears as a bright dot and you cannot even see what it actually is illuminating.

That is why I say the light is more important than the laser. A tandem setup is more desirable if a laser is to be used.

As someone who has had to identify targets first as a priority, I can vouch for this. If you have kids or are worried about shooting the wrong person, you need the light. You can't take back bullets like words.

A focused beam of white light is the best in my opinion. The only time I felt naked without a laser was in the army on night missions. Then that PEQ2 is your best friend. But again, these lasers are invisible without NODS, and that is their primary use.

Just an afterthought, but I NEVER saw a soldier use a color laser on a firearm. Never. White lights and IR lights and lasers yes, color such as red, green, or blue, no. And yes, you can be identified by using one. Especially pulsing ones. The red ones are not as bad as the other colors, but still can pinpoint you.

Also to bear in mind, accidental discharge of a military laser is the same thing as an AD with a weapon. Lasers are also great for team missions where you need to lase a target for your buddies or for an airstrike (not what we are talking about here, but worth mentioning).
 
I despise lasers. It takes longer to find the little red dot and put it where you want it than it does to just point and shoot. It is silly to use the dot and the sights, if you already have sights on target, why worry about the dot?

I think lasers are a poor replacement for good point shooting. Practice a bunch without using your sights and I bet you will hate lasers too.

For indoor dry fire practice, they are a good thing.
 
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