Any room for improvement in revolvers?

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So no one has mentioned Mateba revolvers. Really? I've shot one and those things are great. I understand there is still a patent in effect that keeps them from being produced. But those revolvers were awesome and a step in the direction of advancement. The recoil system reduced the felt recoil you wouldn't believe and the one I put eighteen rounds through was a forty-four magnum and felt like it was Ruger GP100 6" with legit magnum rounds the way it kicked.

We need to get the Mateba's back. Anything else is just a rehash of the last sixty years.
 
whughett said:
All of the pressure is contained by the cylinder so what would be the difference in a break open revolver or a double action where the cylinder swings out from the frame.

The pressure wave is trying to push everything behind it backwards, and everything in front of it forward. Essentially, the gun "wants" to come apart right around where the top break locking mechanism is.

The other thing about top breaks is that the pivot pin and latch can start loosening with use. IIRC, the Webley was affectionately referred to as the "Wobbly Webley".
 
Quality has everything to do with the topic, "room for improvement".

I read it as improvements in the actual design, as in changing the mechanism design or similar, or using new space-age materials. Quality issues now are driven by trying to keep up with supply and demand - and they DO need to be addressed as you surmise.
 
The pressure wave is trying to push everything behind it backwards, and everything in front of it forward. Essentially, the gun "wants" to come apart right around where the top break locking mechanism is.

The other thing about top breaks is that the pivot pin and latch can start loosening with use. IIRC, the Webley was affectionately referred to as the "Wobbly Webley".
Recoil??? The pressure is equal in all directions until the down side of peak as the bullet clears the cylinder gap, then recoil set in.
 
Recoil??? The pressure is equal in all directions until the down side of peak as the bullet clears the cylinder gap, then recoil set in.

Recoil begins as the bullet begins to move. Initially, it is limited to the case and cylinder, but is then transmitted to the frame as well.

To see how recoil affects a top break revolver, try firing a single-shot break action shotgun with a worn locking system -- the gun will come open at every shot.
 
^ This.
Basic physics.
Pressure acts equally in all directions.
It's not the pressure that makes them get loose.
It's the force. In the case of a top break, it's called recoil.

The argument against a modern top break doesn't hold nearly the water it used to.
The old top breaks were made from softer steels than modern revolvers.
The same vintage, old hand ejectors aren't up to shooting hard kicking rounds, either.


As I said before, if the Russians can make a .357 Mag top break, so can the Americans.

The only thing missing from that white/green Taurus Tupperware 85 is some PURPLE.
Then, it would look like The Joker from Batman
 
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Yeah, a single massive lug at the top of the rear (lower) frame would hold just fine. Better yet, make it spring-loaded with a stirrup catch like a Webley so that when you operated the lever, the front went forward and automatically ejected the ammo like German flare guns.

Heck, it would be neat to encorporate an automatic ejector on one side that would spit out empty cases on the side when the hammer fell on the current chamber in a reversal of the gate-loading of the past so that when you opened the cylinder it would be empty and ready to load.
 
Pretty mature technology. We've explored the various corners of the envelope and have sorted out what works well and durably, and with most positive mechanics/ergonomics ... and all the other variations of what works ok-ish, but less optimally. Top breaks, swap-cylinder reloads, odd loading systems (Trounds?), etc. All have their major purported "plus" that proves to be interesting but not nearly valuable enough to outweigh all the other "minuses" that come with it.

The newest real innovation is the Mateba/Rhino low-position firing orientation, but even that has proved to be nothing more than an academic exercise serving to prove out another evolutionary dead end. Reorganizing the structures of the revolver to accommodate sighting, firing, and handling the weapon with the barrel dropped low disrupted the optimal arrangement of the parts as developed so long ago -- hence the oddball firing grip and tortured trigger angle of the Rhino. Works fine, just doesn't do anything better, and some important things not as well.

Revolvers will continue to be very good at a specific niche of the shooting world. Able to fit and handle large, powerful cartridges (which autos can't because of the feeding through the grip). Able to handle wildly varying loads functionally. Able to attain high levels of accuracy with proper construction. And the trade-offs will continue to be relatively slow reloading and relatively large bulk for the payload carried.

Improvements will be almost entirely in the realm of "how" rather than "what." Machining is going to continue to get more accurate and cheaper. It won't be too many generations from now before it truly will be possible to build a Python-level gun right off the laser/edm/molecular-printing/whatever machine, or even something more perfect. The polymer stuff will continue to improve. Some tech advances in ammunition will probably come along, too. But I think that the revolvers of tomorrow are going to be pretty similar to those of today.
 
Recoil??? The pressure is equal in all directions until the down side of peak as the bullet clears the cylinder gap, then recoil set in.

Sorry but that's not the case. The bullet is free to move as soon as it has enough pressure to begin pushing it out of the casing. As soon as that happens recoil starts because the bullet moving ahead is producing an imbalance of pressure in a fore-aft line. So recoil starts as soon as the bullet begins to move.
 
Pretty mature technology. We've explored the various corners of the envelope and have sorted out what works well and durably, and with most positive mechanics/ergonomics ... and all the other variations of what works ok-ish, but less optimally. Top breaks, swap-cylinder reloads, odd loading systems (Trounds?), etc. All have their major purported "plus" that proves to be interesting but not nearly valuable enough to outweigh all the other "minuses" that come with it.

The newest real innovation is the Mateba/Rhino low-position firing orientation, but even that has proved to be nothing more than an academic exercise serving to prove out another evolutionary dead end. Reorganizing the structures of the revolver to accommodate sighting, firing, and handling the weapon with the barrel dropped low disrupted the optimal arrangement of the parts as developed so long ago -- hence the oddball firing grip and tortured trigger angle of the Rhino. Works fine, just doesn't do anything better, and some important things not as well.

Revolvers will continue to be very good at a specific niche of the shooting world. Able to fit and handle large, powerful cartridges (which autos can't because of the feeding through the grip). Able to handle wildly varying loads functionally. Able to attain high levels of accuracy with proper construction. And the trade-offs will continue to be relatively slow reloading and relatively large bulk for the payload carried.

Improvements will be almost entirely in the realm of "how" rather than "what." Machining is going to continue to get more accurate and cheaper. It won't be too many generations from now before it truly will be possible to build a Python-level gun right off the laser/edm/molecular-printing/whatever machine, or even something more perfect. The polymer stuff will continue to improve. Some tech advances in ammunition will probably come along, too. But I think that the revolvers of tomorrow are going to be pretty similar to those of today.
Should we call our moderator Dr. Sam1911.:D
 
Improvements will be almost entirely in the realm of "how" rather than "what." Machining is going to continue to get more accurate and cheaper. It won't be too many generations from now before it truly will be possible to build a Python-level gun right off the laser/edm/molecular-printing/whatever machine, or even something more perfect. The polymer stuff will continue to improve. Some tech advances in ammunition will probably come along, too. But I think that the revolvers of tomorrow are going to be pretty similar to those of today.

A polymer Python :what:
 
As I said before, if the Russians can make a .357 Mag top break, so can the Americans.
How much experience do you have with Russian-designed and manufactured products?

Yes, they can probably make one...and it probably weighs between four and eight pounds. And uses almost as much steel as is used in the average Zil. :)

I've seen some examples of Russian engineering in the aviation world. Similar to their approach to other military hardware--the end product is pretty robust (in every sense of the word).

Not what I would call "improvement".
 
Cool ideas guys! Thanks!

My thoughts so far:

I'd like to see a .357 break open revolver. Why? Because it is ambidextrous and very hard to jam (there is no 'wrong way' a cylinder can turn).

I've fired a Webley that you could unload with one hand. You hit the latch at the same time as you shake the gun forward and down. The weight of the barrel would open the gun and, if you had enough velocity, spit the casings out.

I think that a .357 break open, with an ejector that is longer than the casings (so it doesn't rely on case momentum as much) and/or full moon clips and/or a cylinder "magazine" would allow quicker reloads. These features would also prevent a spent case from getting under the ejector and stuck.

Also, FWIW, the COP .357 was a break open design (although not a 'revolver'). It worked.
 
I've fired a Webley that you could unload with one hand. You hit the latch at the same time as you shake the gun forward and down. The weight of the barrel would open the gun and, if you had enough velocity, spit the casings out.

That's called "abuse". On a top-break, it is the equivalent of flipping the cylinder on a swing-out. It's another factor in makng a "Wobley Webley." You would need some Russian engineering to beef up the hinge to take the abuse.
 
so what if it's abuse. Obviously, in combat, with only the use of one hand, you wouldn't give a fig about the gun's being damaged. You are out of ammo and about to die. A bit of practice with it would be "enough", about as often as most guys practice ccw speed reload with a .38 snub. :)
 
Also, FWIW, the COP .357 was a break open design (although not a 'revolver'). It worked.
:) In theory, it worked. In practice...not so much.

We got one last fall for our annual "house gun" match and it didn't make it through the day. In fact, it crapped out on the SECOND SHOOTER! :eek:

But I'm sure a modern pepperbox could be made to work reliably. Just no one (else) has bothered to try.
 
Maybe true, it did 'wobble' :eek:

However, if a gun could be designed from the start to do that it would reduce reloading times greatly. In fact, it would almost be like an auto: your shooting hand never leaves the grip, your off hand only inserts new rounds and never pulls spent rounds out first (ok, I know that some smaller autos need to have the mag pulled out...but bear with me).

I am thinking that a composite cylinder with steel inserts for the chambers would be durable enough to 'drop' on the ground like an auto magazine.
 
I think there is most definitely room for improvement, and that the revolver is far from dead as a defensive handgun.

New weapons like the Smith and Wesson TRR8, and to a lesser extent the Chiappa Rhino, prove that.
 
I am thinking that a composite cylinder with steel inserts for the chambers would be durable enough to 'drop' on the ground like an auto magazine.
Probably would be. But you're still very limited in capacity compared to a modern autopistol mag for a gun of the same rough size. And, more importantly, you're carrying those extra rounds clutched in a circular array around a spindle hole, which has to be about the least space-efficient manner to do so. In other words, bulky bulbous round things not substantively different to try to carry on your person than speedloaders are now, and those are a pain, themselves.

I guess my reasons for answering "no" are in diminishing returns. I don't see anything in the TR8 that is more than incremental tack-on improvements like a light rail. I mean, that's almost inevitable, and hasn't exactly taken the world by storm. And the Rhino suffers the same fate as the Mateba before it. All of it's innovation is in the realm of "neat-o/weird" rather than useful in any way -- and the Rhino has less going for it, as far as innovation goes, than the Mateba did.

Honestly, the LCR and clones represent the biggest innovations in my eyes, and they're just more kind of inevitable minor changes in materials. A cool iteration but not really expanding on the basics capability of the design.
 
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