Anybody have a rifle or knows where one is that shoots these?

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Cartridge view 5.jpg

O.A.L. approximately 1.5 inches.

Total weight 620 grains.

I believe the case was created using conventional drawn brass technology.

There is definitely a lead projectile that appears to possibly be held in place by a separate brass cap that is swaged into the main casing and folds over approximately .25 inch of the body of the main casing. The overlap creates as much edge as a 45ACP case uses for headspacing. If it is not a separate piece of brass, then the main casing has been very carefully and severely formed to roll back over itself.

The cartridge has a checkboard pattern on the primer.

The cartridge weighs 620 grains according to my Dillion scale.

The cartridge has a very slight taper from bullet to primer.

The cartridge head is not flat bottomed. It is slightly domed.

I think the bullet is a domed cylindrical bullet and not a round ball. I would not be surprised if the bullet weighs 300+ grains.

I would not be surprised if the powder charge is 40 to 60 grains of black powder.
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Might be helpful to take a photo of your cartridge with a scale or dime or some other object in the photo that gives an idea of the size.
 
Pretty strange.
I've never seen anything like it.

And it appears the case shoulder is on the wrong end from the primer.
It would have to be loaded from the front of the chamber.
Then no extractor groove to get it back out of the chamber after firing.

I'm wondering if it might be some sort of igniter for explosive ordinance or something,

Assembled one time in a fuse or something??

Just guessing though.

rc
 
It is often surprising the number of uses for cartridges other than in conventional firearms. Special cartridges are used in everything from breaking up clinkers in coke ovens to aircraft ejection seats to igniting mortar propellants to igniting big navy guns to firing explosive bolts in rocket boosters.

So what do you have? I don't know, but it is not a conventional cartridge and I doubt it was made for use in anything like a conventional firearm.

Jim
 
I know Daisy had some kind of caseless ammunition back when I was a youngun but I never knew what it looked like. I tend to agree it looks more like some kind of igniter or something. Is that some sort of primer in the "closed" end? Or maybe it's not a percussion device at all?
 
It looks very much like the reloadable cartridge case for an ACW Gallager carbine. They were loaded with a .54 caliber bullet and had a rounded base with a vent hole. The weapon still used an external percussion cap fired by a hammer.

However, the Gallager's cartridge were perfectly straight sided and the example in your picture has a short area at the front with a raised diameter like a fat rim. Is that a primer of some sort at the rear--I can't tell from the picture?

It still makes me think that your item is some early reloadable cartridge for a breech loading black powder rifle or carbine--something similar to the ACW Burnside, Gallager, Maynard, or Smith. Still, they all used reloadable cartridges that had no integral primer.

It's just that none of them had a forward rim except the Burnside--but then the Burnside was tapered and not straight sided. The bulge or rim at the front acted as a gas seal.

Of course such inventions were not just limited to the ACW, so this could be something similar from Europe or other country outside the US.

Cheers
 
btg3 - Might be helpful to take a photo of your cartridge with a scale or dime or some other object in the photo that gives an idea of the size.
Click to expand...

Just goes to show you how incompetent at photography I am. Of course you are right but I don't want to re-photograph it so I will add some measurements.

rcmodel -Pretty strange.
I've never seen anything like it.

And it appears the case shoulder is on the wrong end from the primer.
It would have to be loaded from the front of the chamber.
Then no extractor groove to get it back out of the chamber after firing.

I'm wondering if it might be some sort of igniter for explosive ordinance or something,

Assembled one time in a fuse or something??

Just guessing though.
Click to expand...

It is strange isn't it. Pretty sure its a rifle cartridge and not anything else. You are making good guesses about how it would be loaded into the rifle.

Jim K - It is often surprising the number of uses for cartridges other than in conventional firearms. Special cartridges are used in everything from breaking up clinkers in coke ovens to aircraft ejection seats to igniting mortar propellants to igniting big navy guns to firing explosive bolts in rocket boosters.

So what do you have? I don't know, but it is not a conventional cartridge and I doubt it was made for use in anything like a conventional firearm.

Jim
Click to expand...

Pretty sure it is a rifle cartridge intended to shoot living targets. I think it is from the mid-19th century.

mtrmn - Is that some sort of primer in the "closed" end?
Click to expand...

Pretty sure it is.

Bobson - Where did you get it, Nom? And is that the only one you have?
Click to expand...

Out of a cigar box full of loose miscellaneous cartridges that was on the back shelf of a LGS in 1979. It is the only one I have. It may be the only one in existence for all I know as I have never seen one anywhere else.

JustinJ - Is that a lead slug inside it?
Click to expand...

Yes, soft lead about .45 caliber. Cartridge O.A.L. is 1.5 inches

Happy Friday Guys! I thought you might find this entertainingly intriguing.
 
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forward observer said:
It looks very much like the reloadable cartridge case for an ACW Gallager carbine. They were loaded with a .54 caliber bullet and had a rounded base with a vent hole. The weapon still used an external percussion cap fired by a hammer.

However, the Gallager's cartridge were perfectly straight sided and the example in your picture has a short area at the front with a raised diameter like a fat rim. Is that a primer of some sort at the rear--I can't tell from the picture?

It still makes me think that your item is some early reloadable cartridge for a breech loading black powder rifle or carbine--something similar to the ACW Burnside, Gallager, Maynard, or Smith. Still, they all used reloadable cartridges that had no integral primer.

It's just that none of them had a forward rim except the Burnside--but then the Burnside was tapered and not straight sided. The bulge or rim at the front acted as a gas seal.

Of course such inventions were not just limited to the ACW, so this could be something similar from Europe or other country outside the US.

Cheers
Click to expand...

You are in the ballpark but it is not from anything you mentioned.
 
I saw a design similar to that, where the cartridge would fit in the end of an arrow. There would be a ball-bearing inside the arrow shaft, at the back, held in place by a small blob of adhesive. When the arrow hits the target the ball bearing breaks free, strikes the primer and fires the bullet.
 
Odd Job said:
I saw a design similar to that, where the cartridge would fit in the end of an arrow. There would be a ball-bearing inside the arrow shaft, at the back, held in place by a small blob of adhesive. When the arrow hits the target the ball bearing breaks free, strikes the primer and fires the bullet.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I don't think it is one of those. Thanks for confirmation that there are more screwy ideas than anyone could ever imagine. I don't doubt the veracity of your post. I used to be a member of the ICCA. I will check the link you provided. But I posted here to also give you guys the first shot at identification and to enjoy the mystery.
 
It looks like it's machined from a solid lump of brass. So I'd be willing to bet it's not something you'd buy by the box all ready to go in this format. It would more likely be that the rifle or other arm would come with a set of these reloadable "cartridges" that would need reloading by the owner before using again.

The fact that it does have a ball or slug in it does suggest that it's intended for use in some form of firearm. None of the other uses mentioned would bother with any sort of lead projectile...... unless it's not a projectile. Could it be a thin wall dome shaped cap that is swaged into place simply to act as a seal?
 
BCRider said:
It looks like it's machined from a solid lump of brass. So I'd be willing to bet it's not something you'd buy by the box all ready to go in this format. It would more likely be that the rifle or other arm would come with a set of these reloadable "cartridges" that would need reloading by the owner before using again.

The fact that it does have a ball or slug in it does suggest that it's intended for use in some form of firearm. None of the other uses mentioned would bother with any sort of lead projectile...... unless it's not a projectile. Could it be a thin wall dome shaped cap that is swaged into place simply to act as a seal?
Click to expand...

I believe the case was created using conventional drawn brass technology.

There is definitely a lead projectile that appears to possibly be held in place by a separate brass cap that is swaged into the main casing and folds over approximately .25 inch of the body of the main casing. The overlap creates as much edge as a 45ACP case uses for headspacing. If it is not a separate piece of brass, then the main casing has been very carefully and severely formed to roll back over itself.

The cartridge has a checkboard pattern on the primer.

The cartridge weighs 620 grains according to my Dillion scale.

The cartridge has a very slight taper from bullet to primer.

The cartridge head is not flat bottomed. It is slightly domed.

I think the bullet is a domed cylindrical bullet and not a round ball. I would not be surprised if the bullet weighs 300+ grains.

I would not be surprised if the powder charge is 40 to 60 grains of black powder.
 
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