Anybody have an AR in 6.5 Grendel?
- Thread starter Sam Adams
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Yeah, that's not right. It's been years since I read it, so I looked it up last night. But I didn't want to derail from the thread. Besides then people would KNOW I was a total nerd, versus merely THINK I was one.
Anyway. Yes this round is looking very promising. The jury is still out in my mind. But I certainly think the 6.8 does not have the potential in it I want. It would be a different story if I was building my first AR. And the manufacturers chambering the round weren't upper scale people like Barrett (read cost is too much). A complete 300 Whisper upper is under $600, and Grendel starts at about $879, and the .50 Beowulf at $655.
458 SOCOM and 6.8mm have priced themselves out of the market as far as I'm concerned.
Anyway. Yes this round is looking very promising. The jury is still out in my mind. But I certainly think the 6.8 does not have the potential in it I want. It would be a different story if I was building my first AR. And the manufacturers chambering the round weren't upper scale people like Barrett (read cost is too much). A complete 300 Whisper upper is under $600, and Grendel starts at about $879, and the .50 Beowulf at $655.
458 SOCOM and 6.8mm have priced themselves out of the market as far as I'm concerned.
Sam Adams, you forgot one...
Maybe not really large production numbers, but:
TX65 forgot one sweetheart of a 6.5, too. That would be the 6.5-06, papa to the younger 6.5-284, pushing the 120gr Nosler Ballistic tip at 3200fps, or 139gr Lapua Scenar at 3000fps. The 6.5x55 and 6.5-06 are the two rounds that got me hooked on the .264 bore, and will have me building my own 6.5 PPC AR-15 variant after this September, when full-capacity magazine prices come down.
Maybe not really large production numbers, but:
TX65 forgot one sweetheart of a 6.5, too. That would be the 6.5-06, papa to the younger 6.5-284, pushing the 120gr Nosler Ballistic tip at 3200fps, or 139gr Lapua Scenar at 3000fps. The 6.5x55 and 6.5-06 are the two rounds that got me hooked on the .264 bore, and will have me building my own 6.5 PPC AR-15 variant after this September, when full-capacity magazine prices come down.
TX65
Member
As far as how the 6.8 Rem SPC compares to a 6.5 Grendel. Lets look at a couple of areas.
Bullets - Looking at bullets in the 100-130 grain weight range, 6.5mm has a clear advantage in terms of selection of bullets from Hornady, Sierra, Nosler, Lapua, Norma, Barnes, and Swift and all are currently available. In addition, when you look at bullets of similar design, the 6.5mm bullets are far superior in terms of ballistic coefficient. Example ( 6.8mm Sierra 115 MK = .340 BC vs 6.5 Sierra 107 MK = .475) and going a bit heavier (6.8mm Sierra 115 MK = .340 BC vs 6.5 Lapua 123 Scenar = .542). In addition, the 6.8 Rem SPC with its 43mm case is restricted to bullets with a maximum exposure of 14mm and work in the AR15 from the magazine. In contrast, the 6.5 Grendel with its 39mm case can use bullets with a maximum exposure of 18mm and work from the AR15 magazine. In other words, the 6.5 Grendel gives the user far more flexibility in tailoring a load to their application whether that application is competition, hunting, law enforcement or military.
Brass - 6.5 Grendel brass is made by Lapua and is part of the family that includes the 6mm PPC USA which has dominated benchrest competition for 20 years. The 6.8 Rem SPC case is made by Remington, which at least from a competitive rifle shooting view, is not regarded highly. If you reload, the 6.5 Grendel brass made by Lapua is far superior to Remington brass,,, if you don't reload,,, please send your once fired 6.5 Grendel brass to me and I know many people who would be very happy to have it.
Velocity - The 6.5 Grendel will drive a 6.5mm 115 grain bullet at the same velocity (2800 fps) as the 6.8 Rem SPC drives a 115 grain bullet. Given the reported pressures that the 6.8 Rem SPC is running to achieve that velocity, the 6.5 Grendel achieves that performance at a lower pressure.
As far as pricing, Alexander Arms works very hard to put together a high quality product and be able to offer it at a reasonable price through their distributors and dealers. That is why you see the 50 Beowulf and 6.5 Grendel being listed are about to be listed by companies like Cabelas, MidwayUSA and Competition Shooting Sports.
Bullets - Looking at bullets in the 100-130 grain weight range, 6.5mm has a clear advantage in terms of selection of bullets from Hornady, Sierra, Nosler, Lapua, Norma, Barnes, and Swift and all are currently available. In addition, when you look at bullets of similar design, the 6.5mm bullets are far superior in terms of ballistic coefficient. Example ( 6.8mm Sierra 115 MK = .340 BC vs 6.5 Sierra 107 MK = .475) and going a bit heavier (6.8mm Sierra 115 MK = .340 BC vs 6.5 Lapua 123 Scenar = .542). In addition, the 6.8 Rem SPC with its 43mm case is restricted to bullets with a maximum exposure of 14mm and work in the AR15 from the magazine. In contrast, the 6.5 Grendel with its 39mm case can use bullets with a maximum exposure of 18mm and work from the AR15 magazine. In other words, the 6.5 Grendel gives the user far more flexibility in tailoring a load to their application whether that application is competition, hunting, law enforcement or military.
Brass - 6.5 Grendel brass is made by Lapua and is part of the family that includes the 6mm PPC USA which has dominated benchrest competition for 20 years. The 6.8 Rem SPC case is made by Remington, which at least from a competitive rifle shooting view, is not regarded highly. If you reload, the 6.5 Grendel brass made by Lapua is far superior to Remington brass,,, if you don't reload,,, please send your once fired 6.5 Grendel brass to me and I know many people who would be very happy to have it.
Velocity - The 6.5 Grendel will drive a 6.5mm 115 grain bullet at the same velocity (2800 fps) as the 6.8 Rem SPC drives a 115 grain bullet. Given the reported pressures that the 6.8 Rem SPC is running to achieve that velocity, the 6.5 Grendel achieves that performance at a lower pressure.
As far as pricing, Alexander Arms works very hard to put together a high quality product and be able to offer it at a reasonable price through their distributors and dealers. That is why you see the 50 Beowulf and 6.5 Grendel being listed are about to be listed by companies like Cabelas, MidwayUSA and Competition Shooting Sports.
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Not sure what that means...
Does that mean that Remington, which tools up to make runs of obsolescent ammo like the .30 Remington every few years, is going to have trouble making brass for the 6.8 SPC? I'm sitting on a big bag of .30 Remington brass that was a run they did a couple years ago, for my own .30 and .32 Remington rifles. It's not really a big show-stopper. In fact, Remington used a case they already had plenty of experience with, vs. re-inventing the wheel. For them to tool up the 6.8 SPC using the .30 Remington as the parent cartridge was a viable solution.
Brass manufacturers like Winchester and Remington routinely offer extra runs of obsolescent cases, nothing new there. And the brass-forming machines just sit fallow until the next run, very easily fired up for the next batch. I'd recommend not using the discontinuation of .30 Remington as a sales pitch for the 6.5 Grendel. It doesn't wash.
My only dissent with Remington's choice is that they should've chosen a .264" bullet instead of a .277" bullet for their new cartridge.
Does that mean that Remington, which tools up to make runs of obsolescent ammo like the .30 Remington every few years, is going to have trouble making brass for the 6.8 SPC? I'm sitting on a big bag of .30 Remington brass that was a run they did a couple years ago, for my own .30 and .32 Remington rifles. It's not really a big show-stopper. In fact, Remington used a case they already had plenty of experience with, vs. re-inventing the wheel. For them to tool up the 6.8 SPC using the .30 Remington as the parent cartridge was a viable solution.
Brass manufacturers like Winchester and Remington routinely offer extra runs of obsolescent cases, nothing new there. And the brass-forming machines just sit fallow until the next run, very easily fired up for the next batch. I'd recommend not using the discontinuation of .30 Remington as a sales pitch for the 6.5 Grendel. It doesn't wash.
My only dissent with Remington's choice is that they should've chosen a .264" bullet instead of a .277" bullet for their new cartridge.
TX65
Member
Geweher98,
Point taken and edited to reflect the true idea of Remington brass,,, it is not highly regarded in competitive rifle shooting since it is thick and often inconsistent. In terms of domestic brass, Winchester is more highly regarded by competitive rifle shooters. When competitors consider brass made worldwide, Lapua is considered to be the best in terms of quality by most shooters.
The SPC case in it's 43mm case length has 1.5 grains less powder capacity then the 6.5 Grendel (based on measuring actual production cases). At it's current length, the majority of 6.5mm bullets would not operate within the 2.255" OAL required by the AR15. Reducing the case length of the SPC would allow use of the 6.5mm bullets, but would further reduce case capacity and performance would fall.
Point taken and edited to reflect the true idea of Remington brass,,, it is not highly regarded in competitive rifle shooting since it is thick and often inconsistent. In terms of domestic brass, Winchester is more highly regarded by competitive rifle shooters. When competitors consider brass made worldwide, Lapua is considered to be the best in terms of quality by most shooters.
The SPC case in it's 43mm case length has 1.5 grains less powder capacity then the 6.5 Grendel (based on measuring actual production cases). At it's current length, the majority of 6.5mm bullets would not operate within the 2.255" OAL required by the AR15. Reducing the case length of the SPC would allow use of the 6.5mm bullets, but would further reduce case capacity and performance would fall.
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Zak Smith
Member
Anyone interested in the "whys" of the 6.8SPC development should read the TacticalForums thread about it. I believe they tried a bunch of calibers from 6mm up to 7mm and found that .277" had the best terminal ballistics and an acceptible long-range trajectory.
-z
-z
Yeah, I understand the whys.
It's just the $2000+ cost on an upper that sours me on the deal. If you know someone who will be providing it cheaper by all means let me know. If I were to consider spending that much for a Barrett in 6.8mm I think I would go all the way and just get the M82.
It's just the $2000+ cost on an upper that sours me on the deal. If you know someone who will be providing it cheaper by all means let me know. If I were to consider spending that much for a Barrett in 6.8mm I think I would go all the way and just get the M82.
Zak Smith
Member
For the record, MSTN's kick-butt 6.8SPC uppers are less than $1500.
6.8 barrels and uppers will start to get a lot cheaper as reamers and barrels get into people's hands.
Model 1 Sales is already advertising 6.8SPC uppers for $355.
-z
6.8 barrels and uppers will start to get a lot cheaper as reamers and barrels get into people's hands.
Model 1 Sales is already advertising 6.8SPC uppers for $355.
-z
0007
Member
Thanks for the info, TX. I had often thought about having a 6X45 done. Friend of mine who builds "rail" guns built up several for a guy in Japan. I have a SS 7X45 that I got into accidentally in a long time ago, heh, heh. Bought it sight unseen ('cause I'm a Martini nut) as a 223TCU and it turned out to be a 7mm. Ooops.
May have to try the Grendel. It would fit nicely next to my Grendel P-11 and P-30.
May have to try the Grendel. It would fit nicely next to my Grendel P-11 and P-30.
Sven
Senior Member
/sarcasm on
Oh now __that's__ what I stay up at night worrying about - finding legal ways for grandfathered AR owners in CA to get more mags. Riiiiight.
/off
Seriously, very excited about 6.5 Grendel - will be following this closely.
typo
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TX65
Member
If you are interested in the 6.5 Grendel, feel free to email [email protected] or call 281-330-0352 Monday-Friday 8am-6pm Central Time.
Glock Glockler
Member
I dont suppose you'd be willing to share with us any penetration data on how the 6.5 does in media such as gelation, kevlar, snow, pine, etc?
Hi Sven,
No I was only "half" joking about that little magazine barb, Yeah, yeah that's the ticket.
But I do see these larger rounds as a viable platform for big game hunting. Or carrying in bear country. No sporting use for the AR? My butt. This seems like a very good application for both the 458, 510 Phantom, and the .50 Beowulf. In fact I've read a few articles about the .458 being used quite successfully, built upon an AR lower. I threw that in mostly because if you can tell some namby there is a use for the AR in hunting, and they tend to shut up pretty quickly.
Though I'm not one to settle for this as a reason that the government should "allow" us to own certain guns. The second amendment states it is for a well armed militia, the Constitution states Congress is to fund, and provide instruction in the training and supply (doesn't that mean they should be issuing M16's, at least to every land owning citizen whoo hoo) of the Militia of the States. And it was later stated I believe 1790-1791 that the Militia is any able bodied citizen between the ages of 17 - 45. It wasn't until the late 1800's/early 1900's that the militia was twisted (er, I mean re-interpreted) into being the national guard. Molone Lahveh right...
No I was only "half" joking about that little magazine barb, Yeah, yeah that's the ticket.
But I do see these larger rounds as a viable platform for big game hunting. Or carrying in bear country. No sporting use for the AR? My butt. This seems like a very good application for both the 458, 510 Phantom, and the .50 Beowulf. In fact I've read a few articles about the .458 being used quite successfully, built upon an AR lower. I threw that in mostly because if you can tell some namby there is a use for the AR in hunting, and they tend to shut up pretty quickly.
Though I'm not one to settle for this as a reason that the government should "allow" us to own certain guns. The second amendment states it is for a well armed militia, the Constitution states Congress is to fund, and provide instruction in the training and supply (doesn't that mean they should be issuing M16's, at least to every land owning citizen whoo hoo) of the Militia of the States. And it was later stated I believe 1790-1791 that the Militia is any able bodied citizen between the ages of 17 - 45. It wasn't until the late 1800's/early 1900's that the militia was twisted (er, I mean re-interpreted) into being the national guard. Molone Lahveh right...
Jamming
TX65: any truth to the rumor that the 6.5 grendel jams more easily than other AR rounds such as the 223?
Also, can you share penetration data on various 6.5 rounds?
Thanks!
BTW: I live in the People's Republic of California so I can't get an evil AR15. How about a Kel-Tec SU-16 in 6.5 grendel!? That would be *very* cool!
TX65: any truth to the rumor that the 6.5 grendel jams more easily than other AR rounds such as the 223?
Also, can you share penetration data on various 6.5 rounds?
Thanks!
BTW: I live in the People's Republic of California so I can't get an evil AR15. How about a Kel-Tec SU-16 in 6.5 grendel!? That would be *very* cool!
TX65
Member
"any truth to the rumor that the 6.5 grendel jams more easily than other AR rounds such as the 223?"
The 6.5 Grendel feeds as well as .223 Rem AR15's...that is based on my own experience firing many thousands of rounds in each. In addition, since the 6.5 Grendel production models are only now about to ship,, it would be hard for anyone to have such an experience.
What you may have heard is that people who built "one off" 22 PPC and 6 PPC AR15's experienced feeding problems. The first issue with these is that they used 5.56 barrel extensions which have the wrong feed ramp angles for these cartridges. Second, since magazines were individual custom affair, the individual's ability to tune the magazines determined feeding reliability.
In contrast, the 6.5 Grendel has a special barrel extension with the proper feed ramp angles and the magazines are new manufacture specific for the 6.5 Grendel cartridge.
On http://www.65grendel.com, one of the articles mentions some of the penetration results obtained by Dr. Steve Burke, MD who is supposed to have released an article in small arms review I believe.
The 6.5 Grendel feeds as well as .223 Rem AR15's...that is based on my own experience firing many thousands of rounds in each. In addition, since the 6.5 Grendel production models are only now about to ship,, it would be hard for anyone to have such an experience.
What you may have heard is that people who built "one off" 22 PPC and 6 PPC AR15's experienced feeding problems. The first issue with these is that they used 5.56 barrel extensions which have the wrong feed ramp angles for these cartridges. Second, since magazines were individual custom affair, the individual's ability to tune the magazines determined feeding reliability.
In contrast, the 6.5 Grendel has a special barrel extension with the proper feed ramp angles and the magazines are new manufacture specific for the 6.5 Grendel cartridge.
On http://www.65grendel.com, one of the articles mentions some of the penetration results obtained by Dr. Steve Burke, MD who is supposed to have released an article in small arms review I believe.
Sam Adams
Member
Gewehr98
OK, forgive my ignorance, but what is the make and model of that robust-looking 6.5mm rifle in semi-auto? Also, how much does a typical example cost?
OK, forgive my ignorance, but what is the make and model of that robust-looking 6.5mm rifle in semi-auto? Also, how much does a typical example cost?
atek3
Member
Realizing of course that AA, being the first maker of the .26 grendel rifle, will probably make the best uppers, will other companies be allowed to make uppers in chambered for this cartridge or will they have to sell "6.5 PPC improved Wildcats that happen to share the same case dimentions as the grendel"?
the fact that model one sales is making an 6.8 SPC upper seems reassuring that these won't simply be 'boutique cartridges'.
thanks,
atek3
PS I'd hate to see this turn into a PC vs. Mac or VHS vs. Betamax scenario. with Grendel the better intermediate cartridge 223 replacement losing out to 6.8 SPC the widely licensed but inferior standard.
the fact that model one sales is making an 6.8 SPC upper seems reassuring that these won't simply be 'boutique cartridges'.
thanks,
atek3
PS I'd hate to see this turn into a PC vs. Mac or VHS vs. Betamax scenario. with Grendel the better intermediate cartridge 223 replacement losing out to 6.8 SPC the widely licensed but inferior standard.
TX65
Member
Alexander Arms has already authorized Medesha Firearms to make custom 6.5 Grendel uppers. In addition, two well known bolt action rifle manufacturers have expressed their interest in offering 6.5 Grendel bolt action rifles.
Borden Rifles is already underway building benchrest rifles and will build other custom bolt action rifles in 6.5 Grendel.
Borden Rifles is already underway building benchrest rifles and will build other custom bolt action rifles in 6.5 Grendel.
There's a group buy going on at ARFCOM for .458 SOCOM uppers from Marty...
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=121&t=203427&page=4#1221424
atek3
Member
hey arne thats great news, forget what I said
atek3
atek3
MLC
Member.
I'd but a 6.5 Grendel upper or rifle before a 6.8SPC simply because of the available bullets. I also have a hard time buying the statement that 115 grain .277 bullet that the SPC uses would beat out any equivalent 6.5 bullets ballistically.
Sam, don't be so rough on yourself.
That particular model of gun isn't very common anymore. The rifle is a Swedish AG42B Ljungman, developed and produced in WWII as an autoloading alternative to the M96 and M38 Swedish Mausers in 6.5x55. Several years ago, they were fairly cheap, as they were imported under the Curio & Relic category. Like all other caches of imported surplus firearms, the source dried up, and these guns no longer enjoy the abundance on the market they once held.
The Swedes later on set up the Egyptian government to make a similar rifle, albeit in 8mm Mauser, called the Hakim. A smaller version of the AG42B, chambered in 7.62x39 Soviet, was also produced by the Egyptians, and is called the Rasheed.
The AG42B shares something in common with the 6.5 Grendel/6.5 PPC ever-so-slightly-Improved that TX65 is fond of hawking here. It's a 6.5mm bore, and uses the direct gas-impingement method of operation as seen on the AR-15/M16 family. Unlike the AR-15/M16, the AG42B restricts the combustion products to just pushing back the bolt carrier, instead of being distributed deeply inside the workings of the bolt. Something Eugene Stoner should've paid more attention to.
That particular model of gun isn't very common anymore. The rifle is a Swedish AG42B Ljungman, developed and produced in WWII as an autoloading alternative to the M96 and M38 Swedish Mausers in 6.5x55. Several years ago, they were fairly cheap, as they were imported under the Curio & Relic category. Like all other caches of imported surplus firearms, the source dried up, and these guns no longer enjoy the abundance on the market they once held.
The Swedes later on set up the Egyptian government to make a similar rifle, albeit in 8mm Mauser, called the Hakim. A smaller version of the AG42B, chambered in 7.62x39 Soviet, was also produced by the Egyptians, and is called the Rasheed.
The AG42B shares something in common with the 6.5 Grendel/6.5 PPC ever-so-slightly-Improved that TX65 is fond of hawking here. It's a 6.5mm bore, and uses the direct gas-impingement method of operation as seen on the AR-15/M16 family. Unlike the AR-15/M16, the AG42B restricts the combustion products to just pushing back the bolt carrier, instead of being distributed deeply inside the workings of the bolt. Something Eugene Stoner should've paid more attention to.
TX65
Member
In response to questions posted here about ballistics tests,,, the following tests were performed on 10% ballistic gelatin - no barriers such as clothing, kevlar, etc.
Lapua 108-grain Scenar launched at a muzzle velocity of 2750 fps penetrated 22", .43" diameter bullet expansion and 64% weight retention at a distance of 300 yards. On a more casual note, the Lapua 108 split 4inch pine posts at 900 yards.
Speer 90 TNT launched at a muzzle velocity of 3050 fps penetrated 12", .48" diameter bullet expansion and 50% weight retention at a distance of 300 yards.
Nosler 120 Ballistic Tip at a muzzle velocity of 2600 fps penetrated 18", .51" diameter bullet expansion and 75% grain weight retention at a distance of 300 yards. Bullet was a perfect mushroom with no core separation.
Shots were fired from a 24 inch barrel.
Lapua 108-grain Scenar launched at a muzzle velocity of 2750 fps penetrated 22", .43" diameter bullet expansion and 64% weight retention at a distance of 300 yards. On a more casual note, the Lapua 108 split 4inch pine posts at 900 yards.
Speer 90 TNT launched at a muzzle velocity of 3050 fps penetrated 12", .48" diameter bullet expansion and 50% weight retention at a distance of 300 yards.
Nosler 120 Ballistic Tip at a muzzle velocity of 2600 fps penetrated 18", .51" diameter bullet expansion and 75% grain weight retention at a distance of 300 yards. Bullet was a perfect mushroom with no core separation.
Shots were fired from a 24 inch barrel.
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MLC
Member.
What length barrel is required for said ballistics?
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