Anyone ever had "problems" using a suppressor at a public range?
- Thread starter MCMXI
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Bubbles
Member
I'll leave my Form 2's home then.
boricua9mm
Member
Here in FL, the law says that NFA items are illegal unless registered with the ATF. The Form is your proof to the local LEO or rare-as-hens-teeth ATF Agent that you're good to go. You can play the tough guy and get handcuffed, go downtown and wait while it gets sorted out if you want to. I carry full-scale color copies around as proof.
The ranges around here are privately owned. Their range, their rules. You can stomp your feet, yell that "It's a private tax document" and go on a 2nd Amendment rant, but you'll just wind up going home and not shooting that day. Only one range around here doesn't care to see Forms.
I've had one moron R.O. at my gun club tell me "You're not shooting that thing here!" I found another R.O., showed him the Form and went about shooting. Lots of people are clueless to the laws, and some of these R.O.s are clueless to the rules of the very range they oversee. When I pay for my club membership, that type of thing ticks me off. Showing someone that I have a Form doesn't bother me at all.
The ranges around here are privately owned. Their range, their rules. You can stomp your feet, yell that "It's a private tax document" and go on a 2nd Amendment rant, but you'll just wind up going home and not shooting that day. Only one range around here doesn't care to see Forms.
I've had one moron R.O. at my gun club tell me "You're not shooting that thing here!" I found another R.O., showed him the Form and went about shooting. Lots of people are clueless to the laws, and some of these R.O.s are clueless to the rules of the very range they oversee. When I pay for my club membership, that type of thing ticks me off. Showing someone that I have a Form doesn't bother me at all.
Double_J
Member
The range I was formerly a member of had a "no suppressor" rule, and all full auto had to have a "club officer" present during firing. SBR/SBS could be shot at any time. I only saw two short barreled firearms in 2.5 years of going out there. One of them was a VERY OLD double barrel shotgun that someone just bought and wanted to play with, and the other was a sheriff's deputies personal SBR ar-15. I got a turn on the ar, and what a blast it is (LOUD AS CAN BE), and fun to shoot.
I would only show a tax stamp to a LEO or other official if asked, R.O. at that range get NOTHING from me as they tend to be arrogant butt-holes about everything.
I would only show a tax stamp to a LEO or other official if asked, R.O. at that range get NOTHING from me as they tend to be arrogant butt-holes about everything.
Double_J
Member
I asked and was told "that is the way it is", and "it's for safety." Like I said I am no longer a member of that range. I left and the dues more than doubled, in addition to lots of extra paperwork and rules.
my experience was with 'fuds' on club board that didn't think people should have machine guns and silencers. pretty sad.
i've got about 20 stamps, including machine guns (mac10, m16, m60), and have been shooting them at public ranges for a decade or so. I've carried them around most of the country between OH, FL, NM. I've never had anyone ask to see a stamp.
Never been asked to see a stamp for any of mine, including MG, SBS and SBR. It would really depend on who's asking as to whether I'd show them a copy. If its a range official, I'd have a brief discussion as to why they're asking. So long as they're not a jerk, I'd mention that it's a private tax record but show them anyway. If its a local, state or federal LEO, no problem. So long as they don't give me a problem, I'm not going to give them one either.
Torian
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For the same reason at my previous range that there was a 3 round limit in any magazine fed weapon.
When you have ignorant people on these boards that make ridiculous rules...the only recourse you have left is to leave.
The unfortunate result is that these ranges usually don't survive because of this stuff. The membership base continues to taper off with all the old-timers sticking around while the newer generation of members looks elsewhere. There were gentlemen at this range I used to frequent that would sneer at any "black" weapon, and tell you that you had to hand-load each round into your AR-15, otherwise the weapon might malfunction and transition to full-auto.
You just can't make up this level of stupid.
Double_J
Member
I remember a friend of mine who was still a member of the same range I left had a time when he went to pattern his turkey gun. They gave him a fit because it was not "proper" to pattern a shotgun on the short pistol/.22/shotgun range. Of course they have weekly "shotgun matches" where everyone shows up with a $2000 over/under. I still beat almost all of them with an 18 inch mossberg 500, 19/25. They did not care for me after that, and I did not care.
I also remember them getting on to a couple of guys for "shooting too fast" one day. They had an ak of some sort, and apparently were trying to do a torture test. It was funny watching them dump mag after mag of ammo and the range officer get angry that they would not listen. The good guys one by one have left and all that is left are the "Fudds" and other busy-bodies. Now it is a "sponsored membership" only, you have to have a member sponsor you and get approved by the board, what a joke.
I also remember them getting on to a couple of guys for "shooting too fast" one day. They had an ak of some sort, and apparently were trying to do a torture test. It was funny watching them dump mag after mag of ammo and the range officer get angry that they would not listen. The good guys one by one have left and all that is left are the "Fudds" and other busy-bodies. Now it is a "sponsored membership" only, you have to have a member sponsor you and get approved by the board, what a joke.
I am not sure on what basis a law enforcement official could simply demand to see a tax stamp, assuming that the item can be legally owned (with appropriate paperwork) in that area. They can come up and ask, but a LEO cannot simply stop me from engaging in a legal activity, demand documents, and take some kind of action if I don't provide them. I know the political elites have done their best to destroy it but the 4th amendment still carries at least a little water most places.
For a government agent to seize me and make me produce paperwork it would seem that the agent would need at least reasonable articulable suspicion that a crime is being committed or about to be committed. If one can with proper paperwork own a supressor, then having a supressor is not sufficient RAS of a crime. Rather it is a mere hunch or sheer speculation that the person may not have a stamp. Thus going an detaining the person would seem to be a pretty big 4th amendment violation.
I am aware of a case that addressed a similar issue in MA. It was about carrying a gun. There is was legal to carry with a permit and illegal to carry without one. An officer saw indicia of a person carrying a gun, stopped them and demanded a permit be shown. The courts in essence said there was no RAS, because a having a gun is not indicia of illegal activity since one can be carried legally under some circumstances.
An analogy would be driving a car. I can drive if I have a license. However, if I do not have a license it is illegal. A cop cannot just pull over any driver to check and see whether or not that driver has a license. Rather the cop would need reasonable, articulable facts that lead him to suspect the person does not have a license.
Now a government agent could walk up and ask you to voluntarily show your stamp. They very likely will not phrase it that clearly, and although not technically a demand it will sound much more like one than a request to the average Joe. You can waive your rights, and that's on you.
Assuming it is a private range, the owners or workers can make whatever rules (within some constraints) that they want. If you don't like it go somewhere else. They can do a lot of things that would be wholly improper for any LEO to do. For example one range I have gone to wants you to put your name, provide photo ID, fill out a form, and leave your DL#. If a cop walked up to me out of the blue and asked for all that it would be a very different situation.
For a government agent to seize me and make me produce paperwork it would seem that the agent would need at least reasonable articulable suspicion that a crime is being committed or about to be committed. If one can with proper paperwork own a supressor, then having a supressor is not sufficient RAS of a crime. Rather it is a mere hunch or sheer speculation that the person may not have a stamp. Thus going an detaining the person would seem to be a pretty big 4th amendment violation.
I am aware of a case that addressed a similar issue in MA. It was about carrying a gun. There is was legal to carry with a permit and illegal to carry without one. An officer saw indicia of a person carrying a gun, stopped them and demanded a permit be shown. The courts in essence said there was no RAS, because a having a gun is not indicia of illegal activity since one can be carried legally under some circumstances.
An analogy would be driving a car. I can drive if I have a license. However, if I do not have a license it is illegal. A cop cannot just pull over any driver to check and see whether or not that driver has a license. Rather the cop would need reasonable, articulable facts that lead him to suspect the person does not have a license.
Now a government agent could walk up and ask you to voluntarily show your stamp. They very likely will not phrase it that clearly, and although not technically a demand it will sound much more like one than a request to the average Joe. You can waive your rights, and that's on you.
Assuming it is a private range, the owners or workers can make whatever rules (within some constraints) that they want. If you don't like it go somewhere else. They can do a lot of things that would be wholly improper for any LEO to do. For example one range I have gone to wants you to put your name, provide photo ID, fill out a form, and leave your DL#. If a cop walked up to me out of the blue and asked for all that it would be a very different situation.
Arizona_Mike
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At the Rio Salado Sportman's Club main range today there were lots of supressors. No one batted an eye. I think I had the only SBR and not zero attention as well.
Mike
Mike
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
To allow you to shoot, the range can ask for just about anything they want from you as a condition of admission. You don't have to shoot there, but they don't have to let you shoot without the paperwork either.
The same goes for ID.
Since we can now use them for hunting in Texas, I suspect this will become very commonplace as well, though they are still somewhat of a novelty right now, albeit a more popular novelty at the range.
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