Anyone have a clue why this is occurring?

[rcmodel]

Don't need no history of the brass.

The blow holes are going the wrong direction for a case head separation caused by stretching.

It is defective brass, plain & simple.

Probably wrinkles in the case web during case forming when it was made.

Sort it all out, and throw it away before you blow yourself up!!!

BAD, BAD, BAD BRASS!!!!!!

TOSS IT ALL, A.S.A.P.!!!!!

rc

 

[xxmaa]

230rn and RC gave perfect advice;and it looks like the necks are maybe a little long ,was the trim length checked. Also looks like AI chamber! Was it fire formed before loaded as 35 w.looks like a combination . Set back shoulder , pinched mouth. Hard bullet(Barnes ?)if dbl tap makes hot loads like buffaloe bore? Who knows? Your loading it reduced, 4064 might not tolerate it , even though the other head stamps did. Setting the shoulder back thins the web out fast , get Lee collet die and solve that and the trim to length. At the same time.

 

[Andrew Leigh]

The picture I posted above in a prior post was of a .243 cartridge.

Unbeknown to me my hunting friend was given some .243 hand load's by a hunting lodge owner. These lay about for a year when he thought to use them as fouling rounds.

At the range he shot three and mentioned to me that there seemed to be blowback, I took one look and told him to stop immediately. When we go back to his place we thought to pull a couple and to measure the powder load and to see what powder it was (we only have possibly two in the country that are available for this cartridge).

We tried a Kinetic bullet puller and could not dislodge the bullet, we then tried a pair of vice grips but the bullet was so tight that these did not help as there was insufficient purchase. I still have no explanation for how the bullet had literally welded itself to the neck but it did.

Here is the bullet (poor picture) but you can clearly see where the case neck had gripped the shank of the bullet and the portion that went into the case.



Look at the damage to the base as we turned the bullet to dislodge it.

Curiously there were 4 such holes around the base of the case, almost exactly at 90deg intervals. we cut one of the blown cases open at the web and the web looked fine, no obvious defects. It was Lapua brass by the way.

Eventually we had to saw the case neck to remove the bullets.



Finally the inside shot of one of the fires cases showing some form of brass separation / delamination.



We never got to the bottom of it but I firmly believe that pressure was the culprit.

 

[Salmoneye]

Start load at 54, max at 59, but you say the cases were full at 53? Something ain't right! You'd better recheck everything,

/\/\THIS/\/\

 

[50 Shooter]

Andrew, was there any type of sealant in the case necks? That could cause the problem you had with the bullets being stuck.

The over pressure in the case could've caused what you're seeing inside the case. Your friend is lucky that the rifle didn't blow up in his face! Bet he'll never use someone else's reloads ever again!

 

[Gaffer]

New info regarding this case failure. The son tried some more original factory Doubletap cartridges, net reloads and had one of those fail. Now that is something that I would not have done but it is his skin and gun. Obviously the brass is bad.
I am familiar with checking the ring inside for thin brass and have thrown away cases that showed that. Perhaps I will section one of the failed cases to satisfy my curiosity and let you all know.

I did remove the Photo bucket image as it was showing all my photos if one took the time to peak. I'll try to post it a different way.

 

[Rule3]

New info regarding this case failure. The son tried some more original factory Doubletap cartridges, net reloads and had one of those fail. Now that is something that I would not have done but it is his skin and gun. Obviously the brass is bad.
I am familiar with checking the ring inside for thin brass and have thrown away cases that showed that. Perhaps I will section one of the failed cases to satisfy my curiosity and let you all know.

I did remove the Photo bucket image as it was showing all my photos if one took the time to peak. I'll try to post it a different way.

On Photobucket you need to change the setting of your "library" to PRIVATE

The son tried some more original factory Doubletap cartridges, net reloads

That is what I was looking for.

 

[Gaffer]

OK the new case did the same. I did section one of the failed cases and here is the Pic. http://oi57.tinypic.com/2gv7bex.jpg The hole is at 6 o'clock near the base web.

 

[Gaffer]

OK the new case did the same. I did section one of the failed cases and here is the Pic. http://oi57.tinypic.com/kce0k8.jpg The hole is at 6 o'clock near the base web.

 

[tranders]

My manual (Lee) shows for 35 Whelen IMR 4064 with a 200 grain projectile start load of 54 grains and a max of 59 and the max load is compressed.
The OP is correct with his load data. Now if his powder dispenser is actually throwing that load??

 

[50 Shooter]

Can you get a better close up?

Just looking at the whole piece it doesn't look good, there looks like there's spots in a few different places inside the case. Can you verify that?

Oh yeah, tell your son to stop shooting that crap before he loses a body part!

 

[Andrew Leigh]

Andrew, was there any type of sealant in the case necks? That could cause the problem you had with the bullets being stuck.

He would not know, they were freebies.

The over pressure in the case could've caused what you're seeing inside the case. Your friend is lucky that the rifle didn't blow up in his face! Bet he'll never use someone else's reloads ever again!

100% correct he should have known better.

 

[243winxb]

Gaffer photo enlarged

Edit photo and make larger.

 

[snuffy]

One thing I can lend to this discussion is, I bought some double tap 45 ACP nickle coated brass. It is some awful crap. The primer pocket is so tight I can't prime on the Lee LCT press. First the brass will not enter the #2 shell holder, either the rim is too fat or the groove is not deep enough. Primed on the lee hand primer I can get about half the cases into the shell holder. The mouth of the brass looks like it was trimmed with a hacksaw!

I loaded half the box of 100 to shoot and leave it lay, then thought someone else might pick it up to have problems, so I picked it up to add to the recycle brass bin.

I don't know who makes it for double tap, it reminds me of amerc brass, or some stuff Herters had made in Mexico way back in the 70"s.

 

[230RN]

Poster:

Curiously there were 4 such holes around the base of the case, almost exactly at 90deg intervals. we cut one of the blown cases open at the web and the web looked fine, no obvious defects. It was Lapua brass by the way.

Easily explained by this by me:

For example, even in punching out the brass discs from which the cases are drawn, if the original discs are punched out too close together, this may generate hard streaks up the sides of the finished cases which is undetectable in visual inspection.

Which would correspond to 45° away from the four points around the circular blank discs punched out of a sheet of raw material which were too near its neighbors. Thus, (almost) all the circumferential tensional stress as the case expands under the pressure of firing has to be taken up by the four other, softer, streaks.

--------------
Poster:

Cut the case apart about 1/4" or so above where it failed, cut another one of the same brand that hasn't been fired yet and check them.

Me:

I would not simply throw the cases away since the Utah company (or their supplier) may well need them in this kind of investigation. No brass manufacturer wants to distribute defective brass, and I am reasonably sure the Utah outfit (or its supplier) will want to go further in checking out the problem --whether it's from them or subsequent operations by other reloaders or yourself or whatever.

Sounds like it's too late for that?

--------------------

Poster:

The blow holes are going the wrong direction for a case head separation caused by stretching.

True. I don't know why it was suggested that it was an incipient case head separation.

Let's all remember that we are dealing with anywhere from 50,000 to maybe 65,000 psi of very hot expanding gases all contained within a thin little brass bottle.

Terry, 230RN

 

[fguffey]

There is case head protrusion, there is unsupported case head.

I measure case head protrusion, I measure case head thickness from the cup above the web to the case head. I have cases that have a case head thickness of .260", I have cases with case head thickness of .200".

What does this mean? If I had cases that developed holes in the case head above the web I would suspect my rifle had too much case head protrusion. I would not measure my case head thickness when deterring the cases I would use. I would choose not to fire the rifle.

Normal case head protrusion, M1917 & 03s have a case head protrusion of .090" when measured from the bottom of the extractor cut. Mauser 98 type rifles have .110" +.005" clearance.

I have R-P cases with a case head thickness of .260", I consider that case a very safe case when testing a receiver. I would consider military case head thickness of .200" risky when testing a receiver.

F. Guffey

 

[fguffey]

I would choose not to fire the rifle.

The small holes allow hot high pressure metal cutting gas to escape, every time it happens the chamber is being cut, if the case was being supported the holes would not be there.

F. Guffey

 

[dh1633pm]

All the brass tested so far is of the same type. Has any other brand of brass and/or factory ammo been tested? Is the result the same. You can always string test the rifle. You know bolt it down and fire via a string from a safe distance.

 

[Gaffer]

The brass was new un-fired initially and the first 2 failures were 1st time reload with below start recommended powder, IMR 4064, 52.5 grs. . There hand-load data shows 54 gr start and top at 59 gr which would be a full case.
I'll post two more photos:
http://oi57.tinypic.com/kce0k8.jpg
http://oi61.tinypic.com/f2opbq.jpg

I would not have continued to sue the ammo but the son tried some more and one of them had the same failure, 1st time factory load. I have emailed Doubletap 3 times and nary a reply. My suggestion is stay away from their ammo.

 

[Gaffer]

Well I just got an email from Doubletap that said- "upon your letter we did some testing of our own and found the same problem with the reloads
we are now going to switch to norma brass Thank you for your input and we would like to offer you a 15% discount on your next order" You can bet there will not be a next order. I did reply and told him the same failures occurred with factory loads.

 

[50 Shooter]

I wonder what they would offer if the rifle blew up in your face?!

At least we all know who to stay away from, sorry you had to find out the hard way.

15%, gee just slap me in the face please!

 

[Drop45]

Make sure you keep that e-mail.

 

[Rule3]

Well I just got an email from Doubletap that said- "upon your letter we did some testing of our own and found the same problem with the reloads
we are now going to switch to norma brass Thank you for your input and we would like to offer you a 15% discount on your next order" You can bet there will not be a next order. I did reply and told him the same failures occurred with factory loads.

Well that certainly is a poor response from them!. That's the best they could do? Pretty sad.

 

[Elkins45]

I'm a little late to the party, but I did want to make the point that sometimes you just get a bad piece of brass. This 270 was one of 50. The other 49 fired without incident but this one blew gas everywhere and unseated the extractor when it failed.



Sectioning it resulted in this:



Clearly not a normal case head separation from stretching. I still don't know why this happened.

 

[fguffey]

Well that certainly is a poor response from them!. That's the best they could do? Pretty sad.

Primer leaks cause the bolt to be cut from the hot high pressure metal cutting gas. I would suggest the owner of this rifle check it for gas cuts in the back of the chamber.

F. Guffey