Anyone heard of the FairTax Act?

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Are you aware?

Do you know that under the current tax system we will need an 80 percent tax (yes you read it right) to break even as a country in the next twenty six years? Something has to change.
 
Twenty-six years is a LOOOONG time in this day and age (Information Age, etc.).

As I recall, "Social Services" takes up the lion's share of the federal budget, which encompasses things such as schools, welfare, etc. The interest on the "national debt" comes in at second place, with military spending in third (at 500-600 billion dollars, IIRC).
 
Anyone who thinks that a flat tax would get rid of the IRS is smoking something. More likely the IRS would grow and become more aggressive to crack down on "off book" sales, private party sales and collect sales tax on bartered services.

Do you know that under the current tax system we will need an 80 percent tax (yes you read it right) to break even as a country in the next twenty six years? Something has to change.

Have you checked your taxes lately, between Federal, State, County and City Taxes you're probably 50-70% of your income in taxes already.

Federal Income Taxes
FICA
Federal Excise Taxes
Federal Taxes on services
Federal Commodity Taxes
Built in Federal fees on products
Capitol Gains taxes
State income tac (if applicable)
State Property Tax
State Excise Taxes
State Taxes on Services
State Commodity Taxes
State Sales tax
State vehicle taxes
etc, etc, etc
 
The amount of tax is a secondary problem. We wouldn't need near the percentage we pay today if the fedgov could be pruned. The biggest problem with that is the amount of people it would put out of work...
 
The amount of tax is a secondary problem. We wouldn't need near the percentage we pay today if the fedgov could be pruned. The biggest problem with that is the amount of people it would put out of work...

Bingo, treat the problem, not the symptoms.
 
I'll assume nobody's read the book.....

I don't get it, here and all the other forum discussions I've read on this topic all end up looking the same with people getting in to all kinds of tangents. The point is not that the gov't is TOO big, the point is not the national debt, welfare, etc, etc, etc.

The point is that this is doing SOMETHING and taking a step in a better direction.

Are you telling me you'd PREFER keeping our income tax system the same and trying to fight down the ridiculous system that we have now over getting gov't OUT of your income and having a drastically simpler and more efficient tax system on goods sold???

Can anyone see how much more transparent that a sales tax is to the general society? You look at your receipt and right there it lists the dollar amount of your federal tax! That might help open peoples eyes to the size and spending of our gov't just a little....?

Anyway, I'm not here to go over all the details and explain things to anyone if they haven't read all the info yet. Just here to say pick up the book, it's a worthwhile read regardless of where you currently stand on the issue.

Tim
 
the last thing the.gov wants is for people to know how much tax they are paying. the sales tax is a brilliant idea but pols will lose the ability to sick the IRS on their foes so it's a non-starter for that reason alone.
 
Its all just a really big house of cards. Some day it is all going to collapse and it won't be pretty. It will make the great depression look like the company christmas party.
 
Are you telling me you'd PREFER keeping our income tax system the same and trying to fight down the ridiculous system that we have now over getting gov't OUT of your income and having a drastically simpler and more efficient tax system on goods sold???

Nope, but FAIR Tax will still feed the flames. Just a different source. It will reduce IRS though. The only way is to cut fedgov and no politician is willing to do that. It is ridiculous that they spend all but two weeks in DC when they should be home listening to their neighbors.
 
This Is A Great Plan

Every head of household gets a check from the government as a pre- reimbersment of taxes at the poverty level. The tax is only applicable to new manufactured items - the only easily and accurately traceable items to be taxed. There are no taxes on bartered or used items for sale.

I like it. Bring it on and Git 'er done!

Woody

"For every power usurped by government, the People lose a right." B.E.Wood
 
I still haven't been able to get anyone to explain to me how this won't discourage home ownership. I did read the faq on the website, and believe it may have a couple huge holes. The first, is that the tax for purchasing the house must be rolled into the note. I ran some rough numbers, and assuming a 1% point drop in the interest rate your savings on a 30 year mortgage are roughly $3k over the life of the loan (again these are rough numbers).

The second hole, is that the fairtax doesn't take into account that fewer people would be able to qualify for the increased loan amount required to purchase a house. In effect, what happens is your average home price goes from $150k to $200k. Factor in the areas that already have inflated housing costs, and you have a potentially huge problem.

The problem I have, is I want a new tax system that works, and is fair. I however, don't want to trade one problem for another.
 
Fair Tax is a nice idea devoid of reality.

Reality is congress has waaaay too much power because of the current system. Govennment types don't willingly surrender power.

Federal reserve and existing tax system are merely two faces of the same coin. If you want a better economic environment you have to deal with both faces, not just one. Since our federal reserve is a component of a global system, change in the USofA ain't gonna happen.

Lots and lots of people make a living because of the current tax code. No politician will threaten the livelihood of so many people.

Can someone show me the gun related content of this thread?
 
Can someone show me the gun related content of this thread?

Threads in the L&P forum do not need to be gun related, that would be the general discussion forum.
 
Can someone show me the gun related content of this thread?

Next time someone ask why "nannyism" is alive and well in America.......no need to look for "liberals" to blame.

At least half of what you pay for a firearm before sales taxes will end up the governments' pockets. Taxes are very relevant to firearms, their cost and how that cost affects our ability to purchase and shoot firearms.
 
Can someone show me the gun related content of this thread?
The price of your new gun would be the sale price PLUS the FAIR tax rate.

The sale price, however, would probably go down because the manufacturer, distributor, and dealer would no longer have to build into their markups provision for Fed income taxes.

Your income (i.e., take-home pay) would go up by the amount you're paying in Federal income tax today.

Depending on your income bracket, you may actually be able to buy more or better guns.
 
In effect, what happens is your average home price goes from $150k to $200k. Factor in the areas that already have inflated housing costs, and you have a potentially huge problem.

You're forgetting that with Fairtax you just got a 25% raise in your take home pay...
 
But everything just got 25% more expensive to match my raise.

Yes, that's part of it. But now you CHOOSE when you are taxed. And you SEE how much the tax is, instead of the nefarious witholding scheme we have now. The Feds still get their money, but now it's all out in the open.
 
Yes, that's part of it. But now you CHOOSE when you are taxed. And you SEE how much the tax is, instead of the nefarious witholding scheme we have now. The Feds still get their money, but now it's all out in the open.

The only way to choose not to be taxed, is not to consume, and that only works for the short term. Currently, everytime I get paid I see how much the tax is. It isn't something hidden or surprising.
 
Check out the rebate schedule in the FairTax FAQ, they are already covering basic survival consumption.

True, you do see your witholding, but it doesn't "hurt" like it does when you go get a new stereo system and throw down the dollar bills.

I've read several of these NST proposals on Cato and elsewhere, and I think the FairTax might actually have some legs if more people got educated on it. I really believe it's more about advancing the cause of liberty than anything else. It's about taking back control.
 
The rebate for a two person household is $4508. Using the 25% tax figure, this comes out to $18,032 of spending before you get hit with taxes.

I read an interesting article against any type of consumption tax recently, let me see if I can find it again.

Here it is:

http://www.mises.org/story/1768
 
Sorry, auschip, et.al., you've got it wrong.

1. This is the big one: You are already paying a 23%+/- imbeded FEDERAL tax on every thing you buy, new and used. Due to competition prices would go down by approx that 23% within days if not minuets. So a $100.00 item already has 23% IMBEDED. The fair tax would result in you paying $100.00 same as now. $77.00 plus $23.00 national sales tax.

You're not paying any more or less. BUT, your take home pay will increase by the ammount of withholding, FICA, Medicare.

NET GAIN FOR THE TAXPAYER. And every month you would have the amount pre-bated that would equal what the sales tax would be on items up to the poverty level.

2. Only NEW items would be taxed. Buy a new house, car, whatever - pay national sales tax. BUY USED - NO TAX. Zero, zip, nada.

The only exemption in the law is for tuition.

Please go to http://www.fairtax.org and read a little before making comments. If you don't you'll just look like Steve Forbes: Silly.
 
Loath to disagree with Austrians

Auschip's link to: http://www.mises.org/story/1768

Is a very solid piece, but suffers from the fact that it addresses numerous ideas for a consumption tax, as opposed to directly addressing the "Fair Tax" national sales tax. I recommend reading it. Those unfamilair with Austrian economics will likely run into a few difficulties.

The argument that Rothbard presents specifically against a national sales tax, such as the "Fair Tax" is incorrect, in my opinion, however, given the reputation of Rothbard I am open to criticism of my analysis here.

The major section where I feel the argument makes an error is here:

Consider: all prices are determined by the interaction of supply, the stock of goods available to be sold, and by the demand schedule for that good. If the government levies a general 20 percent tax on all retail sales, it is true that retailers will now incur an additional 20 percent cost on all sales. But how can they raise prices to cover these costs? Prices, at all times, tend to be set at the maximum net revenue point for each seller. If the sellers can simply pass the 20 percent increase in costs onto the consumers, why did they have to wait until a sales tax to raise prices? Prices are already at highest net income levels for each firm. Any increase in cost, therefore, will have to be absorbed by the firm; it cannot be passed forward to the consumers. Put another way: the levy of a sales tax has not changed the stock already available to the consumers; that stock has already been produced. Demand curves have not changed, and there is no reason for them to do so. Since supply and demand have not changed, neither will price. Or, looking at the situation from the point of the demand and supply of money, which help determine general price levels, the supply of money has remained as given, and there is also no reason to assume a change in the demand for cash balances either. Hence, prices will remain the same.

The analysis incorrectly fails to take into account that incomes *would* rise (owing the the absence of FICA and income taxes), and therefore prices would be subject to raising as well. Further, the analysis fails to take into account the manner in which businesses pass on expenses incurred from the present system to customers. The removal of the present hodgepodge of laws should allow manufacturers, wholesalers, and retailers to absorb cost cuts in the ultimate price on the product that would, in the very least, partially compensate for the increased cost due to the sales tax.

The major criticism in Rothbard's article is that we worry too much about "how we pluck the goose" rather than how much is plucked from the goose. This criticism is answered in a few ways:

First, the easy reduction in government expenditure by the reduction in scope of the IRS.

Second, the hidden costs of the present system are eliminated. These costs include significatly: poor business decisions made for their tax implications, and the cost of compliance (record keeping, accountants, legal fees).

Third, and most "fuzzy", making the total federal government cost visible to the public may make shrinking the size of the federal governement easier politically. This could also be accomplished by stopping income withholding as Rothbard suggersts in the article.

I am not wholly convinced on the "Fair Tax" but for the most part it sounds good to me. My principle hold-out is that it sounds entirely too good to be true :) That and the oft mentioned (in this thread) unfeasability of it politically. I noticed on their website that they have not found a single Democrat to sponsor the bill, this is discouraging.

-Morgan
 
2. Only NEW items would be taxed. Buy a new house, car, whatever - pay national sales tax. BUY USED - NO TAX. Zero, zip, nada.

Can you define a new and used good. We've never meet but I bet we have almost identical descriptions of "interstate commerce" and somehow I bet both of descriptions will be 180 degrees opposite of the Government's and the Supreme Court's. Same applies to "public use".

Do you think if there was a "fair tax" and given the current composition of the Supreme Court, that "new or taxable good" will be defined as "recently manufactured and not previously purchased at retail" and "used or non-taxable good" will "describe any item that's not new"? I have a Bridge in Brooklyn........

What taxable services? Are you ready to go to jail because you didn't pay your taxes when you helped your neighbor paint his house?
 
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