Anyone loadin black powder into thier .45 LC 'smokelss' rounds ?

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BADUNAME30

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I'm lookin into makin some balck powder rounds for my .45 LC Vaqero.
Anyone doin this ?
Care to share yer recipes ?

MMMmmm...more importantly, is a 'filler' needed to make the powder tight in the case to eliminate detonation ?
 
Real black powder requires that it be under compression. No air space, -or- you can have explosive problems.
I have read that you can get away with as little as 1/16" compression, but you should check that against specific advice from black powder loading publications if you are unfamiliar with loading BP into cartridges.
If you would rather load lighter charges, you can top off the case with a filler and compress the load to COL & roll crimp. Acceptable fillers that don't have "rebound" are Cream of wheat cereal mix, and I've also heard that ground walnut like that used in case cleaning tumblers works well also.
I have read that corn meal specificaly is too "spongey" and will result in less than acceptable outcomes.
I guess that it can push the round apart because of it's tendency to "rebound" -or- "spring-back" from a compressed state.
Remember, those pointers are for genuine black powder ONLY.
Substitutes have thier own particulars that must be adhered to.
 
Just remember to measure real black powder by volumn. I use a black powder measurer and use 35-38 grains , by volumn and you can hear a little crunch as bullet seats to top of powder. I do not use a filler. You can use 3 f or 2 f . I use 2 f as I also use it for my shotgun.
I also use these in my 45 vaqueros. Goex is my preference as my local supplier is always in stock.
 
It has been the only way I've done my 45 Colt rounds. I'm using Pyrodex RS at the moment but it is pretty easy really. Fill the powder to column allowing the bullet to press it about 1/16" as stated.

I actually do mine now on a Lee Pro 1000 progressive press using the double disk on the auto feed. I figure out which two to use buy simply measuring the amount of powder and matching the volume. I've also used GOEX but used a set of measure spoons by Lee as I didn't have a press at that time.
 
What recipe? Size and prime the case, fill it to about 1/4" from the top of the case, seat and crimp a lead bullet.

There's been some discussion on the cast boolits forum about using peanut butter for bullet lube, and I think they are talking about smokeless powder and cast rifle bullets. It might actually be a better BP lube. (or maybe they are joking and it might make a horrendous mess. Someday soon I'm gonna find out)
 
Black powder is NOT dispensed by weight.

Just fill the case to the point where there's no space, but also no compression when seating the bullet.
 
Black powder needs some compression to achieve its full potential. You'll get more consistent ignition and better accuracy if you compress the powder.

I use 35 grains of FFg Goex (weight, and volume on a sliding brass measure, they happen to be equal for this lot of powder) under a 255 grain lead semi-wadcutter, lubed with a mix of 50/50 beeswax and Crisco. I used the same commercial cast bullets I have for smokeless powder, but I melted the lube out of the lube grooves and re-lubed (pan lubing method) with the beeswax/Crisco mix.

Here's the easy way to load black powder cartridges (credit goes to Driftwood Johnson for posting this method in another thread). Using the bullet you are going to load, measure the distance from the top of the crimp groove to the base of the bullet. Now, take a small dowel or drill bit or something similar and measure up from the end of it the same amount and make a mark. This will be the distance into the case your bullet is seated when it's seated to the crimp groove. Now, go down (toward the end of the dowel you just measured from) from this mark 1/16" to 1/8" and make a second mark. This is the mark you will use to get the 1/16" to 1/8" compression of the powder when the bullet is seated. Now, pour the powder (FFg or FFFg) into the case until it comes up to the base of the dowel, with the dowel inserted into the case such that the edge of the case mouth is lined up with the lower mark on the dowel. This will make the powder level be 1/16" to 1/8" HIGHER than where the base of the bullet will be. This will result in the powder being compressed by that amount when you fully seat the bullet.

Now that you have the correct level of powder in the case, pour that charge into the pan for your scale and weigh it. Yes, weigh it. Write that weight down. Adjust whatever powder measure you are going to use such that it throws that weight of powder. Write that setting for the powder measure on a piece of tape or paper and stick it to the can of black powder you poured the charge from. Now you have a volumetric measure that is adjusted to throw the volume of powder that will just allow 1/16" to 1/8" compression in your case with the bullet fully seated and crimped in the crimp groove.

If you open another can of powder, you may need to re-calibrate your volume measure. Maybe, maybe not (probably not, if you use the same brand of powder). Just repeat the process to be sure.

If you want to use a lighter charge, you'll need to factor in the amount of filler (wads, or Cream of Wheat) to add to make up the difference, while still getting 1/16" to 1/8" compression of everything when the bullet is seated. This will take some trial and error. Me, I just load up with 35 grains of FFg Goex and shoot. It's accurate enough to stay on a 6" steel plate at 25 yards offhand all day long. Maybe not THE load for that particular gun, but close enough for what I'm doing with it.
 
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Anyone loadin black powder into their .45 LC 'smokeless' rounds ?
Since you have already gotten good answers I'll have to correct that statement. Actually, we are now loading smokeless powder in .45 Colt Black Powder rounds. The .45 Colt was originally a Black Powder round, that's why the case is so large. So you are going back to the original instead of the current.

I don't always use BP but when I do I use Pyrodex P which is equivalent to FFFg and it works well for me. Using Pyrodex is just easier and it's available around me whereas real BP isn't. (the last local dealer just gave up his license because of costs and harassment)
 
Howdy

Since my name was mentioned, I might as well chime in on this topic. I have been loading 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 44-40, 44 Russian and 45 -70 with Black Powder for quite a few years now for Cowboy Action Shooting. My method is the same for all of the 'pistol length' cartridges, but I do things a bit differently for 45-70.

Here is a photo tutorial I put together a few years ago showing the method I use to determine the proper amount of powder and compression when first setting up to load any particular cartridge and bullet combination. Yes, I do load specific to the bullet. Basically, you will get a different amount of cartridge capacity in the case depending on how deep the bullet extends into the case when seated and crimped. Generally speaking, I only use one bullet style for each of those cartridges, so I only go through the exercise once. If I were to load a second bullet style in any cartridge, I would go through the exercise again for that cartridge. It is pretty simple, only takes a few minutes to do.

http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,18257.0.html

My method using Black Power (real Black Powder, not substitutes) is to set my powder charge so that the powder is compressed between 1/16" -1/8" when the bullet is seated and crimped. Yes, you can add more powder and compress it enough to allow the bullet to seat and crimp. This is the only way to duplicate the original 40 grain load that was used in the early Benet primed, copper cased, folded rim cases that were originally used with the 45 Colt cartridge. Modern cases do not have as much case capacity as the old Benet primed cases or the later balloon head cases. So stuffing in 40 grains means a lot of compression, maybe 1/4". This is a very stout load, and in This Cowboy's Humble Opinion, it is overkill, and a waste of powder.

Using my method, I put in between 33 grains, and 37 grains depending on the brand and granulation of powder I am using.

Regarding weighing vs measuring Black Powder by volume. I wish I had a dollar for every time I have read or heard that you must load Black Powder by volume. The simple fact is there is absolutely nothing wrong with weighing Black Powder. I have done it myself many times.

But the fly in the ointment is that not all Black Powder weighs the same. It ain't like producing Smokeless powders, where the manufacturer strives to make the powder with exactly the same burn characteristics lot after lot and year after year. Black Powder manufacturers use techniques and materials that may vary slightly from manufacturer to manufacturer. There is no industry standard to exactly what the burn rate and density should be from manufacturer to manufacturer. So Brand X powder may weigh a significantly different amount than Brand Y powder. I keep a chart in my reloading notebook of the actual weight of the charges I use in all the cartridges I mentioned earlier. As an example, I have settled on 2.2CC of FFg under a 250 grain Big Lube bullet in 45 Colt. According to my notebook, the actual weight of that charge is 34.5 grains when using FFg Goex, 37 grains for FFg Elephant, and 33 grains when using FFg Schuetzen. So one can see that saying XX.X grains of FFg is meaningless unless the actual brand is specified. Not specifying the brand and granulation of powder could possibly result in too much or too little compression. To make matters worse, the weight of the powder seems to vary slightly from year to year or even from lot to lot even with the same manufacturer.

The upshot is I am actually measuring my powder by volume, but I also have a reference number written down for how much the charge actually weighs.

Not to worry, you cannot stuff enough powder into a case designed for Black Powder, such as the 45 Colt, to damage a revolver in good mechanical condition and made with modern steel.

Yes, you may get different velocity with different brands of powder using my method, but frankly, for CAS it is not enough to worry about.

However when I load 45-70 for precision long range accuracy, I do limit my choice of powder and amount of compression. And there are some BPCR competitors who actually weigh their powder, they do not measure by volume. But you can be sure they have qualified the exact brand, granulation, and lot of powder they are using, and if they buy a new batch of powder they will requalify it.

I don't even want to get into the grains vs 'grains volume' can of worms here.

******************************

One other thing that I don't think has been mentioned here, if you shoot real Black Powder you are going to have to do something about the lube on your bullets. Generally speaking if you use modern Smokeless lube, the stuff that comes on most cast bullets, you will have problems with Black Powder. Generally speaking, using Smokeless lube with Black Powder will result in hard caked fouling in the barrel that will quickly ruin accuracy and be difficult to remove. The bullet in my photos is a Big Lube 250 grain PRS bullet lubed with SPG.

Somebody mentioned melting the lube out of regular Smokeless bullets and substituting a BP compatible lube. This is called Pan Lubing. I used to Pan Lube my bullets with a 50/50 Beeswax/Crisco mix for a number of years before changing to Big Lube bullets. Here is something I wrote up about Pan Lubing a few years ago:

http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=8f96e06c3875aa962798abd013cd1595&topic=301.0

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Reduced loads and fillers: Some years ago I did use corn meal for a filler in some of my 45 Colt loads. I had no problems at all. Currently, the favorite filler in the Cowboy Crowd is Grits. I know some guys are using Cream of Wheat too. I have never heard of using Walmut Media, but I guess there is a first time for everything. 'Rebound' is not how I would characterize what can happen with fillers. Using grain products as a filler, overtime they can absorb moisture from the surrounding atmosphere, even though the bullet is seated and crimped. Over time, the theory goes, as the filler absorbs moisture, it will attempt to expand, but being locked in place by the bullet it cannot. So the slightly damper filler can raise pressure when the cartridge is fired. That is the theory anyway.

A very different phenomenon can happen if one attempts to put a really big load of powder under compression and seats and crimps bullets in two steps. It is possible for the compressed powder to push the bullet out a bit in the time between seating the bullet and compressing it. A friend of mine was stuffing a standard amount of powder and a wad into his 45 Colt loads without reducing the amount of powder to allow for the volume of the wad. He was having problems cycling these rounds through his Uberti 1873 replica. They were too long and were jamming the gun. He was seating and crimping in two steps on a progressive press. Just the few seconds between seating and crimping was enough for the powder and wad to push the bullet out a bit, affecting his cartridge Over All Length. When he reduced the charge a bit, the problem went away.

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I stopped using filler a long time ago. Instead, if I want lighter loads I will go to a smaller case with smaller capacity. For a light load in a 45 I will load the 45 Schofield round with 1.9CC of FFg and a 200 grain bullet. A much milder load than my standard 2.2CC/250 grain 45 Colt load. However, as with all things there is a catch. Sometimes a 45 Schofield round will not chamber properly in a Ruger, because of the larger diameter rim, and the way Ruger machines the ratchet teeth on their cylinder. Not every time, but I do have two Vaqueros that are a bit stubborn with one chamber each when loading 45 Schofield in them. I have had no such problems with Colts or clones, the ratchet teeth are machined differently and have a tad more clearance.

The 45 Cowboy Special can also be used for very light Black Powder loads in a 45 Colt revolver. It has the same internal case capacity as a 45 ACP, but the same rim design as the 45 Colt.

http://www.cowboy45special.com/
 
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First and foremost, let me please apollogize to all of you for not reposnding in a timely manner. Been very busy with spring chores.
Thank you all for your responses to my question.
Particularly Hammerdown77 and Driftwood Johnson for the lengthy, thot out and very informative reposnses. VERY educationl posts !!!! And, exactly the info that i was lookin for.
I will need some time to thoroughly read these thru and digest it all jist as soon as im done reloadin all my wifes' ammo for her lol.
I did check out, sort o' quickly, the links you posted Driftwood and all i can say is thanks for takin me down yet another road of fun gun stuff. Especialy Cascity. Janet, my wife, thanks you for that one too ;)
 
Hello the camp! Since DJ signed on, no need for me to dwell on particulars. That said, and in search of simple, I started .45 Colt bp with Bear Creek moly-coated bullets, 2.5cc dipper of Goex FFg and a double layer of beeswax comb for lube. I was working at the time and developed insipient carpal tunnel; while full loads were fun to shoot, a whole match was painful. I dialed back to 1.9cc bp and .7cc grits; mild to shoot [the time I used MaltoMeal, cuz I was out of grits, made it a long time to lunch].
Wax sheets available on-line--'beekeeping supplies' search--or here, my local supply--http://crocketthoney.com/
NOTE: I just looked and don't see the sheets. Either call them, toll-free, or find another source on-line. As I don't have a dog in the fight anymore--I make my own lube for biglube boolits--I tout Crockett mainly for over 15 yr good service.
If you get froggy, you can try this setup I made for my Dillon:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=218188&page=40 post#982
My .02. mm
 
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