bainter1212
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Tagged. A rare, fascinating piece. Interested in it's full story.
Anyone seen a nagant revolver like this, what do I have?
- Thread starter roccoracer
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roccoracer
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Ya'know, I was just thinking about where you might find info on this gun.
You got an appraisal. An appraisal on a piece like this has to take into account A) who is presenting this personalized piece, and B) who is receiving. All else being equal (and it never is!), the more famous either of them are, the more valuable.
If the appraiser actually gave you an accurate appraisal he must know who Navrodski is. I'd bet he can give you a reference to a book or article or at least a jumping off point. If I were you I'd get back in touch with your appraiser and ask.
You got an appraisal. An appraisal on a piece like this has to take into account A) who is presenting this personalized piece, and B) who is receiving. All else being equal (and it never is!), the more famous either of them are, the more valuable.
If the appraiser actually gave you an accurate appraisal he must know who Navrodski is. I'd bet he can give you a reference to a book or article or at least a jumping off point. If I were you I'd get back in touch with your appraiser and ask.
roccoracer
Member
I asked him after the appraisal. He did not who Navrodski was but did know who kliment voroshilov was. He did tell me that the revolver could easily sell for much more if I could get some provenance. I have not found anything on Navrodski as of yet. He was involved in the border war with Japan in 1939 and was lauded for getting Mongolian troops to fight with them. The Battle of Khalkhin Gol: The Japanese-Soviet Border War of 1939
What you have to worry about is who you have it appraised by. I would not let any gun broker appraised that because they may throw some b.s. at you hoping you'll sell it to them less than it's really worth.
You need to get in touch with the prominent auction houses who deal in everything besides just guns. They have far better qualifications. In my area over the last week an employee going through some donated books at a Goodwill stumbled across a hollowed out book with a black powdered derringer inside of it that from the picture looks pristine. Imagine a black powdered derringer. Where talking 19th century here.
You need to get in touch with the prominent auction houses who deal in everything besides just guns. They have far better qualifications. In my area over the last week an employee going through some donated books at a Goodwill stumbled across a hollowed out book with a black powdered derringer inside of it that from the picture looks pristine. Imagine a black powdered derringer. Where talking 19th century here.
kBob
Member
JWR,
You are aware that hollowed out books with BP derringers in them are still being sold new, aren't you?
Would like to see a picture though.
-kBob
You are aware that hollowed out books with BP derringers in them are still being sold new, aren't you?
Would like to see a picture though.
-kBob
Shadow 7D
Member
In todays Modern Age
I'd suggest you find a museum in Russia, that deals in this period/area and might have records, one thing to say about the CCCP, like all bureaucrats, they liked their paperwork...
Also, private firearms were NOT, and still are not the norm in Russia, so there's a record of it, how it got to the US...
I'd suggest you find a museum in Russia, that deals in this period/area and might have records, one thing to say about the CCCP, like all bureaucrats, they liked their paperwork...
Also, private firearms were NOT, and still are not the norm in Russia, so there's a record of it, how it got to the US...
wojownik
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I've been hunting through various records for Navrodski, and am not coming up with anything.
However, do note the date on the inscription (15 November 1939). This is exactly two weeks before the Soviet invasion of Finland (start of the Finnish-Soviet Winter War). Makes one think ... perhaps a gift from Vorishilov to one of his staffers that helped plan the incursion? Or a gift for an officer about to head off to war? More darkly, because I can't find anything on this Navrodski, I'm wondering if he was later denounced and purged by Vorishilov (and traces of him removed from the records). Not the Great Purge, but one of those officers that took the blame later for the poor Soviet army performance and losses.
Regardless of who the pistol was intended for, the provenance to Vorishilov is absolutely huge. The find of a lifetime.
However, do note the date on the inscription (15 November 1939). This is exactly two weeks before the Soviet invasion of Finland (start of the Finnish-Soviet Winter War). Makes one think ... perhaps a gift from Vorishilov to one of his staffers that helped plan the incursion? Or a gift for an officer about to head off to war? More darkly, because I can't find anything on this Navrodski, I'm wondering if he was later denounced and purged by Vorishilov (and traces of him removed from the records). Not the Great Purge, but one of those officers that took the blame later for the poor Soviet army performance and losses.
Regardless of who the pistol was intended for, the provenance to Vorishilov is absolutely huge. The find of a lifetime.
@ wojownik,
The way you put that it almost sounds scary to the degree that if he was purged from Russia's history they may very well want to keep his memory buried. If that's the case the OP should contact a lawyer and use the lawyer as a go between, especially if he's living on the east coat, because the east coast is crawling with Russian spies. And don't ever underestimate Comrade Putin. If I where the OP I would not drink from anything that hasn't been purchased by him personally and capped. Nor eat out at any restaurants. (radioactive poisoning and very hard to detect)
The way you put that it almost sounds scary to the degree that if he was purged from Russia's history they may very well want to keep his memory buried. If that's the case the OP should contact a lawyer and use the lawyer as a go between, especially if he's living on the east coat, because the east coast is crawling with Russian spies. And don't ever underestimate Comrade Putin. If I where the OP I would not drink from anything that hasn't been purchased by him personally and capped. Nor eat out at any restaurants. (radioactive poisoning and very hard to detect)
wojownik
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^^^ Um, that's a bit over the top. 
It just a dark period of history. The purges were real, the "disappearance" of people and records were real.
Soviet censors went to extraordinary lengths to remove people from "history" during the great purges. There are many famous examples of photos with the Soviet old guard of bolsheviks, where the victims of the purges were removed with retouching. Example below, where NKVD head Yezhov "disappears" - he was purged by Stalin in 1938:
Lesser citizens virtually had their existence removed from the record (folks like Yezhov were to prominent for that).
FWIW, Vorishilov was one of the top four signers of death warrants during the Great Purge, and was quite quick to assign the blame for "problems" on subordinates. And the performance during the Winter War was certainly a "problem" - Khrushchev (then a Party Commissar) called Voroshilov the "biggest sack of sh*t in the Red Army." Voroshilov was certainly looking for scapegoats after that operation went south in a big way. He got into a huge argument with Stalin on the war's failure - one of the very few recorded instances where a subordinate argued with Stalin so vehemently (Khrushchev said that Voroshilov even threw a platter of food on the ground in a rage in front of Stalin). Still, Voroshilov was tight enough with "the boss" that he survived the purges and the failure of the winter war (though he was reassigned). He not only survived Stalin, but remained a major party figure, only retiring to make way for Brezhnev to ascend to a top party post in the early 1960s.
It just a dark period of history. The purges were real, the "disappearance" of people and records were real.
Soviet censors went to extraordinary lengths to remove people from "history" during the great purges. There are many famous examples of photos with the Soviet old guard of bolsheviks, where the victims of the purges were removed with retouching. Example below, where NKVD head Yezhov "disappears" - he was purged by Stalin in 1938:
Lesser citizens virtually had their existence removed from the record (folks like Yezhov were to prominent for that).
FWIW, Vorishilov was one of the top four signers of death warrants during the Great Purge, and was quite quick to assign the blame for "problems" on subordinates. And the performance during the Winter War was certainly a "problem" - Khrushchev (then a Party Commissar) called Voroshilov the "biggest sack of sh*t in the Red Army." Voroshilov was certainly looking for scapegoats after that operation went south in a big way. He got into a huge argument with Stalin on the war's failure - one of the very few recorded instances where a subordinate argued with Stalin so vehemently (Khrushchev said that Voroshilov even threw a platter of food on the ground in a rage in front of Stalin). Still, Voroshilov was tight enough with "the boss" that he survived the purges and the failure of the winter war (though he was reassigned). He not only survived Stalin, but remained a major party figure, only retiring to make way for Brezhnev to ascend to a top party post in the early 1960s.
Joseph Stalin killed more of his own people than Pol Pot and Adolph Hitler combine.
I know my history quite well, thank you very much.
Guess who his business partner was in the 1930's. Hint: one of the brothers claims they are a Social Liberal. (their father was Stalin's business partner)
I know my history quite well, thank you very much.
Guess who his business partner was in the 1930's. Hint: one of the brothers claims they are a Social Liberal. (their father was Stalin's business partner)
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wojownik
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No, over the top in that you bring up needing lawyers, etc. Regardless, I am not interest in engaging in ad hominem attacks, however disjointed.
The information I posted is for the context of that revolver. It has a visceral history - the OP is quite lucky to have found it. That's a real museum piece. I have a friend at the Library of Congress. who has a number of contacts with his archival counterparts over in Russia (assuming they had not retired by now). If he has any thoughts on who to contact, I'll PM the OP.
The information I posted is for the context of that revolver. It has a visceral history - the OP is quite lucky to have found it. That's a real museum piece. I have a friend at the Library of Congress. who has a number of contacts with his archival counterparts over in Russia (assuming they had not retired by now). If he has any thoughts on who to contact, I'll PM the OP.
Relax, no one is attacking your credibility.
And believe it or not a museum may be the best place for it because it will be out in the open and seen by the spies so they'll know the OP doesn't have it any longer. If he try's to unload it underground to a rich private collector they'll kill him for the name of that collector.
The only other option if he want's to get out from under it but make a sizable amount of money is to let the premiere auction houses auction it. If it's authenticity with the kind of history you suspect can somehow be corroborated that pistol is perhaps is in the high $6 figure range, and depending on who's bidding could go even higher.
And believe it or not a museum may be the best place for it because it will be out in the open and seen by the spies so they'll know the OP doesn't have it any longer. If he try's to unload it underground to a rich private collector they'll kill him for the name of that collector.
The only other option if he want's to get out from under it but make a sizable amount of money is to let the premiere auction houses auction it. If it's authenticity with the kind of history you suspect can somehow be corroborated that pistol is perhaps is in the high $6 figure range, and depending on who's bidding could go even higher.
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ok, folk, JWR voiced his concern, but let's stick to the OP's Nagant and any help one might be able to offer to support it's provenance. Anything else beyond that is off-topic and will be deleted in the interested of keeping the thread on-topic.
JWR - check your inbox.
JWR - check your inbox.
BobWright
Member
Wish I'd said that.
Bob Wright
roccoracer
Member
I have put some thought into contacting an auction house. A chunk of cash would be nice and I would like to see the revolver go somewhere it could be displayed. I never for a moment thought it would be dangerous to have it. What makes you think that Is a possibility?
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Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Oh, how very cool! Great piece of history and something to own and display proudly!
(Not dangerous at all. Let's not be too daft. Vlad Putin and his clandestine pals have more important things to do than settle 80 year old scores on behalf of a long dead, denounced, dictator.
)
(Not dangerous at all. Let's not be too daft. Vlad Putin and his clandestine pals have more important things to do than settle 80 year old scores on behalf of a long dead, denounced, dictator.
)bainter1212
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Yes, not a dangerous item to have. Even purged "enemies of the State" who were banished to Siberia in lieu of execution were often "rehabilitated" and allowed to return to their lives, often for very strange and incomprehensible reasons.
I would also encourage this pistol be sold to a museum.
I would also encourage this pistol be sold to a museum.
il.bill
Member
I just learned a valuable THR lesson - after five days of disdainfully passing by this thread (just as I did in 2012!) I finally clicked on it to snicker a bit. I now feel so humbled.
roccoracer - thank you for bringing this thread back to life. Congratulations on your exceptional Nagant revolver. I have thoroughly enjoyed reading and viewing the pictures - where ever your revolver ends up, it will surely be special to students of history (and firearms) for years to come.
"It was a gift from a friend who owns a gun store. He said in 40+ years he had never seen one like it. He thought it would be a nice piece for my collection." That part of the story seems like icing on the cake.
Does this mean that I now have to look at every thread on this forum?
roccoracer - thank you for bringing this thread back to life. Congratulations on your exceptional Nagant revolver. I have thoroughly enjoyed reading and viewing the pictures - where ever your revolver ends up, it will surely be special to students of history (and firearms) for years to come.
"It was a gift from a friend who owns a gun store. He said in 40+ years he had never seen one like it. He thought it would be a nice piece for my collection." That part of the story seems like icing on the cake.
Does this mean that I now have to look at every thread on this forum?
roccoracer
Member
Why did you have disdain at first?
il.bill
Member
Guess I was being something I tend to dislike: a 'gun snob'. I thought it was just another Nagant revolver thread started by some 'NOOB' and figured there could be nothing 'special' about a 'goofy' $99 mil-surp handgun.
Buddy, I sure stand corrected !
16in50calNavalRifle
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Seems unlikely anything will ever come of the search for Navrodski - but perhaps the connection to the Russian archivists will bear fruit.
Recall this thread from when it first went up. Was fairly stunned when the first legible photos revealed "Voroshilov" as the presenter - wasn't aware of the details wojownik has usefully brought to the discussion, but was aware that Voroshilov was a big name of the time.
One more reason to order Robert Conquest's updated/revised edition of his "Great Terror", one of the best history books on any topic I've ever read. Amazing - and appalling - reading.
Recall this thread from when it first went up. Was fairly stunned when the first legible photos revealed "Voroshilov" as the presenter - wasn't aware of the details wojownik has usefully brought to the discussion, but was aware that Voroshilov was a big name of the time.
One more reason to order Robert Conquest's updated/revised edition of his "Great Terror", one of the best history books on any topic I've ever read. Amazing - and appalling - reading.
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