Anyone shoot shortened 410 shells out of a 45 colt pistol

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gravelyctry

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This may belong in the reloading section, and if so, mods, please feel free to move it.

My question is, has anyone tried to shorten 410 shells to a length that would allow them to chamber in a pistol chambered for a 45 colt?

The reason I'm interested is because I live in the country in Iowa, my driveway is 3/8 of a mile long, and I'm surrounded by fields. When I mow my lawn, I see probably 2-3 mice each time. Also, when I mow my driveway, I almost always see 2-3 of those dang ground squirrels. I currently use my single six loaded with bird shot to shoot the mice, but it's actually pretty tough to get them, and if they manage to get any distance away, the 22 birdshot is pretty much worthless. I can't get close enough to the ground squirrels to touch them with birdshot either. Finally, those little birdshot rounds aren't cheap, and it takes several of them to get a mouse.

For a little while, I was thinking about getting a Judge so I could just shoot 2 1/2inch shells out of it for both the mice and the ground squirrels, but I'm sure I'd be disappointed with the inability to shoot 45 colt out of it accurately.

So then I started thinking, why not cut 410 shells down and reload them to fit into a regular 45 colt cylinder on a decent pistol. I'm thinking something like a Ruger Blackhawk or SBH. Also, I have plenty of 410 shells that I reload for my 6 and 8 year old, and also I have a supply of them coming from my dad who shoots a 410 for pest control, but doesn't reload.

I know there's load data out there for reduced length 12 gauge shells, so the concept is out there.

Probably hasn't been tried before, but I figured I'd ask the question. Thanks for any replies.

Neil
 
Yes.
There is an article describing cutting off and loading .410s as .45 revolver shotshells in an old Gun Digest or Handloaders Digest. Unfortunately my collection was lost in a fire so I can't look it up for you.
 
410 in olt 45 pistol

I own a "Judge" and this is what it does best. I think you need a revolver cylinder long enough for the 410 2 1/2 in length.

better to ask if someone has fired Colt 45 in a 410
 
Engr,

While I haven't shot one myself, I read several reviews of the Judge that basically showed that while the gun is capable of shooting 45's, it's just not real good at it. By good, I mean accurate.

Since I'm only shooting at tiny pests, I was thinking a shortened 410 would work well.

Jim, do you recall when that article came out? I'll try to contact the publishers to see if they can provide any information, but if I could help narrow it down to a timeframe, it might be helpful.

Thanks, Neil
 
.45 Colt shot loads

Why don't you just make up .45 Colt shot loads? I would think that would be much simpler but then I'm assuming that you reload and have the tools on hand.
 
used to see the short as legal single shot break open 410s pretty commonly in gun shops
PGO flavor, sometimes referred to as "snake charmers"... inexpensive, simple, ok for a beater loaded with light load 2 1/2 #8s, no wing shooting req'd

might consider that, save your revolver for revolver stuff, you know
 
We used to make up shot loads for the 45 Colt by putting a charge of Unique followed by an inverted gas check (45 cal), the shot load, and crimping another gas check on top of the shot. Now we use Speer shot capsules and follow their loading data.
Interesting side note.
Buddy got one of the first Judges. We shot patterns with it and then took one shot at a piece of OSB from abut twelve or so feet. Lots of splash back, not more than a few buried themselves in the plywood...this was 2 1/2" #6 shot (not "handgun" shotshells). I then shot five with my 3" old Bulldog. Patterns similar, not quite as dense as there was less shot, but the penetration on OSB was much better.
Try the Speers, you'll like 'em. They are also available as loaded rounds.
 
The solution to your problem is to buy some .45 Colt gas checks. Prime the case, charge it with a few grains of Bullseye, then seat a gas check facing up in the case -- push it all the way to the bottom. Fill the case nearly to the mouth with shot, and place another gas check facing down over the shot charge. Crimp and you have a shotshell.

If you like, you can put a dab of silicone sealant on the case mouth.
 
.38 and .41 shot shell

I have loaded .38 shells with 3gains of bullseye with 92 grains of no#9 shot about 117 pellets. I used a 5/16 th inch dowel to push the gas checks in. I also loaded .41 mag with 4 grains of bullseye with #8 shot with gas checks.This was back around 17 to 19 years ago. I have not reloaded since then but am getting back into it as i have used all my ammo i reloaded back then. What charge do you use for the .45 as my son has a .45 now and would like to reload some for himself as he has shot the .41 with snake loads and he liked it.
 
I can't tell you what charge to use with gas checks, as I never use them since CCI came out with the shot capsules.
I always felt there was a chance of leaving the over-powder gas check stuck in the bore, and leading is worse without a shot cap keeping the shot away from the rifling.

Besides that, you have to buy .45 cal gas checks 1,000 at a time, and they are priced like they are made out of pure gold anymore.

The recommended loads with CCI/Speer shotcaps is:
Unique - 7.5 = 975 FPS.
W-231 - 6.0 = 925 FPS.
Titegroup - 5.7 = 920 FPS.
700-x - 5.5 = 915 FPS.
Bullseye - 5.5 = 875 FPS.

rc
 
Agree with RC,
More bother than it's worth, why not just buy some Speer .45 Colt shotshells?
Denis
 
I made a bunch with 5.0 grains bullseye, up-facing gas check, 212 grains of #7 1/2 lead shot (approx 169 pellets), and a down-facing gas check crimped on top. Patterns real nice from my Taurus at 7 paces but leads the bejezus out of it!!! Not really worth the time spent cleaning out all the lead.
 
Buying them already loaded is pretty salt - about $1.50 each.

To those of you that have used two gas checks to make 45 snake loads, why not use a trimmed 410 wad instead? Seems like that would help prevent the leading issues. They're also dirt cheap and I've got plenty of them.

I noticed USSR's quote, and thought it fit this situation perfectly.

Thanks, Neil
 
I've used the Speer .44 shot capsules, and they are excellent. According to my notes, a .44 capsule full of #8 weighs a scooch over 150 grains, and the payload amounts to about 125 pellets. I used a couple of tenths less powder charge of HP-38 than it says in the Speer manual. No leading, and a pretty usable pattern out to 15 or 20 feet, out of a 3" Model 24. Probably #9 shot would be better, with a bit denser pattern, but I had #8 in stock, and wasn't going to buy a bag of shot for the few spoonfuls needed for these.
 
I know that this post/thread is as old as the hills, but if the OP author is still looking and will read this, then I may have the answer. Living in CA is a very strange situation and I too wanted to try my hands at getting a shot load out of a 45LC format. Shell length and cylinder length always being the problem that and CA's DOJ didn't help matters. Well it seems that the state has a big thing when it comes to law's language and specific's. They once banned a pen gun that the Fed's had determined it was not such since it had to be folded and manipulated to something that did indeed look like a gun prior to its firing. Well the state still didn't like it because "Pen" was in the guns name. So the company changed the pistol's name and it was all of a sudden legal in CA. Get that? So in terms of pistols and shotshells (of which they do NOT have a problem, read 38, 44, and 45, shotloads available at your local dealer) they just have a problem with a true shotgun shell being able to fit inside a pistol. They use exclusively the terms "Commercially Available" when it comes to the mention of shot shells that would make the pistol chambering them illegal. So I did some reasearch and found that if you had a round that was not Commercially Available, then it would be perfectly legal in the state while in a pistol (as long as it had rifling making the Fed's happy as well).

So I embarked on a way to shorten a 410 hull and change the dimensions of the chamber just a notch to not allow a commercially available round to chamber, but perfectly able to chamber a non commercially available round to indeed chamber. I got some prints and set about designing a new round and chamber that would take a modified 410 hull and would chamber and fire it without the ability to do the same with any commercially available round. Thus the 410 round that bears my name.

To shorten the 410 hull I first started using a set gauge for my drill press that had a very small kerf to saw the hulls down to size. That sort of worked, but it left a nasty rough case mouth even with the small kerf. I then gave a try to even things out with a Ballistic Products pair of wad snips. Those worked great, but I'd still end up with uneven hulls and lengths. I then asked Rick Morrill of "The 310 Shop" (online as it shows) that if he could modify his Kake Kutter of which I bought two in two different calibers, I could trim away with the snips. Well that indeed did work, however the snips were also snipping the metal of the Kake Kutter (not desired at all) so my hulls kept getting shorter and shorter as well as now being uneven. The last modification was to drop the snips in favor of one of those newer utility pocket knives that allowed the user to choke up on the cutter to right before the cutting surface of the blade. With that I was able to trim right up to the surface of the Kake Kutter Trimmer without cutting or dinging the metal and keeping my hulls nice and trimmed with little or no follow up snipping required. My overall length is just under the former "commercially available" 2" hull at 1.95" and will still hold anything that a 2.5" hull could possibly hold. I do this by reducing the amounts of filler and cushioning wads and slight compression during the loading operation. That is just 35 thousandths over your desired overall length. Also there are some revolvers in the 45LC class that have slightly longer than 1.6" cylinder lengths. In the single action mode, look at all the offerings for the 454 casull rather than the 45LC. Same or similar chamber, but with a longer cylinder for sure. Of course anything in the S&W 460 Magnum would be even better albeit more expensive to start. Magnum Research's BFR comes to mind here as well as Smith's X Frame. Give Rick a call as he has more experience in this field than he ever wanted to have in the first place with me. He knows what he is doing and produces quality tooling as well. He is also now working on a 310 tong tool that will be able to load 410 shells. Not sure the cost if asked to make one for a shorter shell? Smithy.
 
So is the advantage that using a .410 hull allows the use of more shot? The only disadvantage I could see would be having to use the more expensive shotshell primer when handloading.

Good stuff! How's about some pictures?

35W
 
The absolute easiest and cheapest way is to us .45 cases. Cut the wads out of a stiff paper(I use primer pack sleeves) with an empty chamfered case.
Prime case/add 2 grs Bullseye/ seat cardboard wad with pencil or dowel. Pour in shot almost to the top. Take modeling clay and flatten out a piece to about 1/8" thick. Press down over the case to seal and hold the shot.........AND PRESTO.........You're good to go.
I've made 100's of these to shoot carpenter bees around my barn and shop.
This is way simpler and way cheaper than the suggestions above.
 
The absolute easiest and cheapest way is to us .45 cases. Cut the wads out of a stiff paper(I use primer pack sleeves) with an empty chamfered case.
Prime case/add 2 grs Bullseye/ seat cardboard wad with pencil or dowel. Pour in shot almost to the top. Take modeling clay and flatten out a piece to about 1/8" thick. Press down over the case to seal and hold the shot.........AND PRESTO.........You're good to go.
I've made 100's of these to shoot carpenter bees around my barn and shop.
This is way simpler and way cheaper than the suggestions above.
Click to expand...

When I first tried to shotize my 45 (since living in CA) I thought of going the route of my shot loads in 38 and 44 with the Speer shot capsules. I then tried (don't laugh please) to do a number like the TC Contender use to do. They had a regular brass shell and a extra long capsule full of shot loaded into it. The round would not work in a revolver though since it was too long and it also required a special TC choke that severed the plastic encasement apart so the shot could spread out. Well have you ever heard of a (I think it's called?) a ringed shot load? Where you cut the shotshell at the wad section and the whole shell comes out except for the brass head. Well that's what I ended up with when I tried to marry a 410 plastic case and mouth inside of a 45LC brass case. All epoxied together and roll crimped with at least a 1/2 ounce of shot? Yep the whole darn thing went out the end of the barrel and I might as well of shot a Glazer safety slug rather than the monstrosity I ended up making.

Questions to you sir: How much shell space and what kind of load did the 2 grains of Bullseye produce. I was trying to find a dense powder and started experimenting with Lil Gun for my loads, but I'd imagine that they're more dense powders out there? Did you pattern the load? Did it come out as a normal shot string or was it blotched all up with the lightweight over powder wad you were using? After all, asking is the first step to learning and I'm not quite satisfied with what I've created. Another thought would be if someone made say 45 basic brass? Like what is available for the many 45-70 to 45-120 rifle loads? That way one could trim it back to 1.6 inches and load it like you have done using thin components right?

If the latter was possible, what happens at the case mouth as far as the revolver's chamber is concerned? Would you need to buy some very expensive case forming die's from RCBS? I've seen some of them listed at Midway for other chamberings and they are awful expensive. One very little form die (other dies must also be purchased) goes for over one hundred bucks. I don't really want to invest four or five hundred bucks just because I live in California!!! Now for your legal boys: Is there any sort of problem living in California in developing a regular 45 LC load that has more than one bullet. I've seen ads for Old time bullet molds that you could adjust the bottom plunger to get any weight that you wanted within a specific range. Each notch brought you up 50 grain or something like that. The one I saw was a bottom pour mold so that you could pour cylinders (maybe two or three) and crimp it off with a round nosed single band base? Would that be legal or not?

Still confused and still trying to keep my head in the legal department, but get a cool load for my large caliber guns. Smithy.
 
I played around with shot version of the 45 ACP, 45 Win Mag, 45 Colt and in all those iterations, using the blue Speer shot capsules was best (and easiest). I have the RCBS die that squeezes the 45 brass to fit into the chamber (a la 45 ACP shotshell). Those don't work in revolvers, as they back out and tie up the cylinder.

If the shot payload is not enough, and it typically isn't unless you're doing snakes or mice at short ranges, you need a longer cartridge. Ideally, something that could take 2 blue Speer shot cups. The 460 S&W may work, but it may still be too short depending on cylinder length. You could try cutting down one speer capsule, but they are fragile. Or, get a gun in 444 Marlin and use the 44 caliber capsules or get one in 45-70 and use the 45 capsules. The latter may be best because the capsule may not be grabbed by the rifling to rotate it. But, then it may not break up either and you're back to your glaser safety slug...

The Taurus Judge solved the problem for me, as it will take a 444 marlin case or a 410 shotshell. But that's not a choice for you if you are in California. I need to try the 444 case with the 44 caliber capsules in the Judge to see how those work. I've just done the 410 wad with that brass.
 
Why don't you just make up .45 Colt shot loads? I would think that would be much simpler but then I'm assuming that you reload and have the tools on hand.
Click to expand...

I did it with ..357 brass and gas checks for over and under wad. No real use for such a thing, though, unless you can't hit a snake's head with a bullet from 15 feet. :rolleyes: Just being real here, don't see a use for shot loads in a pistol, though I hear about 'em on the boards ALL the time.

One thing I did that's interesting is load two .454" round ball in .45 Colt for a duplex load. I don't think I like the idea, though, for self defense. There are legal ramifications to this and, well, I might not wanna hit a hostage, ya know?

I do own a 10" TC barrel in .45 Colt/.410. It's pretty worthless, too, but I didn't realize that when I bought it. :D
 
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