Anyone switch to manual safeties after you have kids?

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Liam_G

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Hey, all,

Just wondering ...

My first handgun was a 1911, but since then I have owned some Glocks, then switched over to decocker TDA pistols, primarily Sigs. With a baby now, I've thought of switching back to a gun with a manual external safety ... you know, just in case I ever do something really, REALLY stupid, it's one more possible barrier to disaster.

I know a lot of training is going to be required of me if I make this switch: working with that safety is going to need to become truly second nature. Just wondering if anyone else ever followed this path???

Thanks,
Liam
 
I have a G19 & G26 and was considering the same thing not that the kids are growing up (ages 10 & 6). Was looking at Taurus PT92 AFS or a Beretta 92 FS. Maybe even a CZ 75 SP-01, but after thinking about it, is it creating a false sense of security.

I remembered I still have a BHP which has a magazine safety which might just fit the bill.
 
Liam,

I don't have kids (first neice or nephew is on the way though), but, if I may, I'll offer some thoughts. The heavy initial DA pull on the SIG serves as a "safety" just like it does on revolvers. With the new baby your time for training is, I'm sure, much more limited now. I think your familiarity and experience with your current weapon provides a far greater margin of safety than a new pistol with manual safety and limited training will. Ultimately adeherance to the four rules of gun safety will prevent disaster. I also recommend taking a look at www.corneredcat.com. That site is written and maintained by PAX, a moderator here at THR. It contains a wealth of information on firearms and children sharing the same home. Lots of good reading that both parents can enjoy and learn from. Congratulations on the new baby!
 
Hey, Ugaarguy,

Thanks for that link. That's a really amazing site, and it's one I'm going to share with my wife (who is curious about shooting). Thanks very much for the thoughtful and helpful reply.

Liam

p.s. Thanks for the congratulations! The 'baby' is now 17 months old, so not that new ... but is now getting into everything! Hence my recent concerns ...
 
Look at the Beretta PX-4. I just bought one and like as much as my Glocks.

But use lock boxes or whatever. I have three year girl so I never leave anything out.
 
I guess my initial reaction is "why should you change the type of gun you carry because of your kids"? I have four kids that range in age from 16 to 3. Whether I carry a decocker-only (which I do) or a safety version of a pistol shouldn't matter, because they should never have access to it. The only time it could even become an issue is when they get hold of the gun...which they shouldn't.

There's also a lot of education that needs to take place. My older boys have been taught gun safety, have handled and shot my guns, and know what to do when they see a gun some place. The younger ones know that the guns are not toys and they shouldn't touch. That doesn't mean I trust them not to pick one up if it's laying around, so I'm religious about not leaving a gun (or ammo!) anywhere they can get to it. If I'm not working on it, then it's in the safe and locked.

I don't think there's any reason to switch to a manual safety -- and lots of reasons not to. Keep your guns safe and out of the way of your kids and you won't have any problems.

Jim
 
Agreed. And my guns are always either locked up or on me. And my daughter will be raised to know about guns and gun safety. But ... people make mistakes. It's easy to say "Well, just don't make mistakes." But we do make mistakes, even the best of us.

I've just about decided against manual safeties for various reasons cited in this thread. I'm very comfortable with TDA and DAO autos, and with revolvers, and the training requirements to get as comfortable with a new manual of arms is probably not something I have time for now.

Thanks for the input, everyone!
Liam
 
I know this is going to come off the wrong way butI'm gonna say it anyway.

Kids and guns don't worry me nearly as much as gun owners that don't want to spend the two seconds it takes to learn how to operate a firearm safety.

just because you have a safety on a gun does not mean you have to use it. I recommend you use it on a cocked and locked single action. That is of course if it is cocked.

I have guns with no safety, decockers, passive and active safeties. Most of the time the safety is never on on any of them that have em. What am I giving up? NOTHING. My baby 19 months of snooping climbing running happiness. Safeties aren't going to make he(r) any safer. That is pure illusion.

You know what you might want to think about with kids and guns?

LEAD EXPOSURE!

Yeah it's on you and everything (i mean everything!) that ever touches a dirty gun or ammo. No, It may not KILL your kid, but it may decide what college they go to... if at all... or even finish high school.

food for thought -bevr
 
Safety / safety - nothing's perfect

if one gun I own were to be found by children ... I would probably prefer it be the Springfield XD-45.

Note: I have a young niece, but no kids of my own, and won't until I'm out of grad school in a couple of years ;) So I've thought about it but can't relate any horror stories.

Why the XD-45 would be the "least worst" gun to have a young child find, compared to a few others:

- Revolver is too intuitive. Even I could figure out how to swing open the barrel [EDIT: should be "cylinder" -- oh, the shame!], that the bullet-things go in the empty-hole places, etc, and I don't have the creative genius of a rampant 3-year-old. And while the double-action pull of my S&W 625 is would be pretty hard to manage with tiny hands, cocking the hammer makes pulling the trigger something well past "easy," and the shape / leverage of the hammerspur makes cocking it (just through playful manipulation) a breeze.

- Though my other autopistols (various calibers) all have either a conventional safety or a decocker, if they have a round in the chamber and have been cocked, it would take only a curious flicking or tugging of parts to make them ready to fire. Not that it would be a child's first move, but I could easily imagine one pulling back the hammer from the half-cock (decocked) position; might take two hands, but not that much strength. If they had *no* round in the chamber, I suspect most kids would not figure out (or be able to) chamber a round by racking the slide, and that most autopistols are therefore semi-resistant to them. When I first picked up my XD a few weeks ago, I know *I* had a heck of a time pulling it back! (Loosened sufficiently after a box of ammo through it, but still definitely a decent tug is required, and not sized for toddler hands.) Upshot: the external safety on most autopistols works pretty well at preventing adults from shooting when they don't want to; I doubt it would stop a kid from figuring out how to make that stupid trigger pull all the way back, after they've pulled, pushed and torqued every protuberance on the gun (found that little red dot on the safety), stuck fingers down the barrel, etc. Look, it fits! I know one misconception I had as a 4- or 5-year-old kid is that there was some *other* step to make a gun fire other than pulling the trigger, a "secret button" or something along those lines; that would have been a dangerous belief to test with most handguns, because there isn't!

- Grip safety. I may be wrong (I sure am not offering consulting! :)), but I think this is the thing that would make it hard for a kid to shoot. Maybe not an 8 or 10 year-old, but a small-handed, curious, non-firearms aware burglar / lockpick who managed to get hands on a gun in my house would have a time getting hands around the grip-safety and depressing the trigger at the same time.

Partly, of course, most questions of safety have to do with how a gun is stored. If the gun is for home defense, I know some posters on this board have explained that their tradeoff (which sounds like a decent one) is to keep ammo convenient by separate; Yes, that raises the hackles of some of the other posters ("What good is it if it's not cocked, locked, and hurling lead at a bad guy?!"), but if I had kids in the house, I might prefer it. I bet too that if I had kids in the house I'd probably keep a self-defense pistol un-cocked, if loaded. Mel Tappan would have disapproved, but we all have choices and preferences. I think the sound of an autopistol being racked would be pretty unnerving if I heard it from the other side of the barrel!

Obviously, if you're carrying concealed, it's a different picture. But if your gun is for shooting at a range or collecting, and therefore not kept handy for personal defense purposes (another way to raise hackles* ;)), I'd suggest that the gun and its ammo ought both be locked securely, and perhaps in separate places.

And overall, once they're past the few-years-old stage, kids' awareness is what matters. A friend of mine has a young daughter; she knows that she's not to touch the loaded revolver atop the kitchen cabinets, and is of a temperment that makes this a workable arrangement. Some kids don't inspire as much confidence; they might be "good kids" but have a bad combination of curiosity, strength, and deviousness.

timothy

* Hey, just what *are* hackles, anyhow?
 
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Lots of information on child safety here. I have a 1yr old and have not really thought too much about manual safeties. I have a couple 1911's and a couple XD's. The point has been raised already, ACCESS or rather lack of, is key for the really young kids. Once they hit 4 or 5, Eddie the Eagle education comes into play. I currently have a couple safes and store ammo in our LOCKED closet. Accidents can happen regardless of the presence of a manual safety. Nothing will replace safes, gun locks, and education. I think the later is the biggest safety device out there. Teaching your kids gun safety rules from the start is essential. I too waited until post-grad school to have children and wish I had started earlier. Our son's a joy, I just wish I had more energy to keep up with him! :D
 
My duty weapon was a 4" DA .357 when my first child was born. That weapon was either on me or secured with handcuffs for many years. All other weapons were routinely secured in a massive safe. I "gunproofed" the kids appropriately for their ages, included them in as much of the shooting as they wanted, and enrolled them in hunter safety classes along the way. Told them they could always look at anything they wanted whenever they wanted as long as they asked me, and to never talk about my guns to other kids. It all worked out fine.

My son got his own Model 15 S&W Smith at fifteen or so, and my daughter a Glock 19 around the same time. The guns still stayed in the big safe but they were theirs.

Nowadays with all the easy access personal safes there is NO reason for a gun to be available to the young or unqualified, period. There is too much at stake to cut corners.
 
You should get a small electronic lock box and keep your gun in there with a loaded clip. If you keep the loaded clip in the gun make sure it does not have a round in the chamber. A manual safety is something you yourself may forget about in a stressful situation and it may cost you your life.
If its in a lock box all you'll have to do is retrieve the gun, rack the slide, and you're ready.

Your child would have to do three steps:
1. find the lock box
2. enter the correct code
3. rack the slide

Unless you have some sort of super baby, that ain't happening. :)
 
You should get a small electronic lock box and keep your gun in there with a loaded clip. If you keep the loaded clip in the gun make sure it does not have a round in the chamber. A manual safety is something you yourself may forget about in a stressful situation and it may cost you your life.
If its in a lock box all you'll have to do is retrieve the gun, rack the slide, and you're ready.

Your child would have to do three steps:
1. find the lock box
2. enter the correct code
3. rack the slide
I have a house full (or so it seems sometimes) of toddlers, and this is exactly what I do. What toddler would be able to do all that?

If you have to transport it off your body, you can get one of these things so the nippers can't get at it. It has a steel mesh bag covered in nylon. I use a combination lock rather than a key lock, but you get the idea:
671241_9996Lrg.jpg
 
My carry gun already has a safety.

I do fail to see the point of leaving an unloaded or empty-chambered gun in your bedside minisafe, but if that is what makes you sleep better, I guess it's worth it.
 
My target / plinking guns are covered. They're stored securely, unloaded. It's my carry gun & bedside safe gun that I'm discussing, really. And I'm not going to leave that one with an empty chamber ... if someone breaks in during the night, I don't want to have to remember to rack the slide ...

Liam
 
Preventing access is the number one line of defense.

Little one will surprise you. For example as a test not long ago:

I triple checked my Turk Mauser and pointed it in a safe direction. I then asked my three year old if she knew how to work Daddy's "powpow". She walked over to me and grabbed the bolt, turned the handle up, pulled it back all the way, and then pushed it back forward. Little ones pick up things all the time that we don't even know they know. Preventing access is the key.

I once read the story of a toddler that killed himself by hooking the front sight of a 1911 on a table and using his body weight to rack the slide. I also have seem the story of a tiny one that killed himself with a double action revolver by using both thumbs to pull the trigger.

Put them up and lock them up.
 
I have 2 boys 4 and 1 years old and the 4 year old loves guns...I correct him every time I let him touch a rifle or pistol if he makes a mistake...I don't use the words "play with" at all when I show him one. They are locked in a 350lb safe all the time. I went back and forth with hand guns for a while...when I started in LE I carried a glock 36 and then realized I wanted something with a long tight trigger pull or a safety...bought a P99 in 9mm....couldn't shoot it POI was all over the place...I replaced that with a S&W 908...it has a safety, mag disconnect, and a long trigger pull...it shot well but the slide started pitting after 6 months...traded that back in for a glock 19...when I come home I empty the gun completly and put it in the safe...its habit now...my summer J frame 38's trigger is too long and stiff for the kids to pull yet so that stays loaded in the safe...that also has the internal lock...I am a firm believer in the mag disconnect but only S&W and Browning offer them 100% of the time...just get in a routine and you will do fine.
 
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