apartment defense

[RetiredUSNChief]

Keep in mind what "stop" means here...it means "stop the assault/break-in/burglary/etc". It doesn't mean "kill or maim", necessarily.

I submit to you that if you were to cut loose on someone breaking into your house with a shotgun loaded with ANYTHING, that someone is NOT likely to be interested in continuing with their activities. They're going to be very much interested in getting the heck out of Dodge.

I understand the real and practical differences between shooting someone with birdshot and shooting someone with 00 buck, slugs, and various pistol & rifle rounds. However, home defense is also to be weighed against the potential collateral damages...like a round passing through a window, two flimsy layers of 1/2 inch gypsum sheetrock, or a hollow-core door on their way out of the appartment and into a neighbor's appartment...and possibly to pass through the cat sitting on a little old lady's lap on the way to her chest.

Often, the absolute most effective weapon, or ammunition, is not the best choice for all given circumstances.

In an apartment building, or a house in a residential neighborhood, I would opt for my shotgun with birdshot if I had a reasonable choice. (I'll go for whatever weapons of opportunity are readily available, though.) Argue about effectiveness all you want, but you combine the birdshot with the extremely identifiable sound of a pump shotgun chambering a round, followed by the extremely loud sound (esp. in a house) of a 12 gauge shotgun discharging, and you have an extremely effective weapon. Times 5, for the magazine capacity of my shotgun.

This is why I did not want to get into specifics in my own answer as to what this person should do, weapons or otherwise. We can discuss "the best this" and "the best that" until the mountains grind away into sand. I felt it to be more important to discuss some of the thought processes which should be considered when making decisions which are appropriate to this person, because he is the one who knows all the little details about where he lives.

And let's all keep in mind something important here, before we all get too far off on a tangent: horseman61 did not ask about weapons. He asked about things he could do to make his apartment safer for his girlfriend while he's not home, and the examples he gave did not include such things as firearms. He was interested in passive security improvements.

 

[SEE IT LIKE A NATIVE]

My concern with birdshot at close range is that it can and will do a great deal of tissue damage and that it may or may not penetrate to the vital organs . Having said that, there is a great deal of difference between low brass 1 oz loads of 7 1/2 or 8 sized shot and a 1 1/4 or 1 3/8 oz charge of #6,4,5 or larger "birdshot " . Anyone hit with the good stuff is in a world of hurt , any limb struck would be possibly amputated , the bad guy will likely bleed out in a short time if hit in the upper thigh to upper shoulder and neck area . I realize that he may still be a threat , but there are more shots in the gun so why stop shooting ? Yes I keep buckshot loaded in my shottie , but at close range birdshot can be just as effective . Kevin

 

[Deltaboy1984]

Even with a shotgun, peripheral hits (especially with birdshot) may well not stop. The two basic factors still apply when a shotgun is used - Placement and Penetration.

I used to refer to the article summarized below while the full text was available free on line as a case study demonstrating that fact:

One particular case has been documented from Australia. In February 1995, a man committed suicide on parkland in Canberra, Australia. He took a pump action shotgun and shot himself in the chest. The load passed through the chest without hitting a rib, and went out the other side. He then walked fifteen meters, reloaded, leaned the shotgun against his throat, and shot his throat and part of his jaw. He then reloaded, walked 136 meters to a hill slope, lay down on the slope, held the gun against his chest with his hands and operated the trigger with his toes. This shot entered the thoracic cavity and demolished the heart, killing him - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_gunshot_suicide

The article can be seen at https://www.mja.com.au/journal/2000/173/11/shotgun-suicide-difference for those interested in pursuing it further, IIRC the loads used were #2 shot.

The Aussie dude was just tough as an ole pine knot.
Turkey Loads should work inside a home but I still tell folks go for 00 Buck.

 

[Frank Ettin]

In a post that has now been deleted, someone suggested a shotgun set up as a booby trap.

Irresponsible suggestions like that are not welcome on THR. Such arrangements intended for a human target are pretty universally illegal. It is also irresponsible to shoot anything without identifying your target.

 

[1894]

The longer screws (as suggested above) are your best bet. As is anything that gives you time. Consider confusing furniture arrangements, etc. Layer your defenses: Front door, bedroom door, bathroom door... Reinforce them all w/ the longer screws. The whole idea is to buy time. Time to call 911 and get into a defensible position - with your family behind you.

Many responses have hijacked this thread into bird v/s buck. Your call what you use but in my opinion that's a different discussion.

Most complexes won't allow installation of lights (however operated) outside the apt. Depending on your particular layout, you may be able to mount a camera inside the apt that focuses on the front door. Inside the apt, it's up to you and your cash flow. A few years ago, I knew a guy who had a motion activated camera mounted over the peep hole on his door. The signal (don't remember if it was wireless) went to a 13" old school tv he set on top of the one he used. Maybe today you can get one that can be dvr'd.

Best of luck!

 

[horsemen61]

Okay guys I changed out the screws on all the doors/hinges they were half an inch an old very old I added 3 1/2 inchers. Added door stops to the interior door that we don't use. I am looking into motion senising lights. Thanks guys for the ideas.

 

[mdauben]

I submit to you that if you were to cut loose on someone breaking into your house with a shotgun loaded with ANYTHING, that someone is NOT likely to be interested in continuing with their activities. They're going to be very much interested in getting the heck out of Dodge.

Sorry but there are too many reliable reports of people shrugging off various birdshot hits for me to ever trust my life to such ammo. No hand held weapon, even a shotgun full of 00 is a 100% "stopper" so I see no reason to deliberately choose less effective loads.

However, home defense is also to be weighed against the potential collateral damages...like a round passing through a window, two flimsy layers of 1/2 inch gypsum sheetrock, or a hollow-core door on their way out of the appartment and into a neighbor's appartment

It's an unfortunate fact that any effective SD round (pistol, rifle or shotgun) will penetrate interior walls with enough energy left to do serious damage on the other side. You best bet is to determine safe "firing lanes" in your apartment of townhome, that minimize the change of hitting a neighbor even if the shot goes through the wall, rather than searching for a mythical load that will stop an attacker in his tracks yet bounce off wallboard.

 

[JustinJ]

Sorry but there are too many reliable reports of people shrugging off various birdshot hits for me to ever trust my life to such ammo. No hand held weapon, even a shotgun full of 00 is a 100% "stopper" so I see no reason to deliberately choose less effective loads.

There are also plenty of accounts of people being hit with most rounds, especially handgun, without being slowed down. Many of those reports include hits to the torso. If a person takes some peripheral bird shot pellets to the shoulder then no, it may fail to stop them. But i have no doubt that a wad of bird shot center mass at apartment distances will do the trick. I'm not advocating bird shot and consider buck shot to be far superior but if penetration is an issue bird shot is not without value.

You best bet is to determine safe "firing lanes" in your apartment of townhome, that minimize the change of hitting a neighbor even if the shot goes through the wall, rather than searching for a mythical load that will stop an attacker in his tracks yet bounce off wallboard.

I don't see that as practical given there is no way to ensure said bad guy will be in the "right" position while you are in the "right" position.

There are rounds out there of various caliber that are better suited to apartment defense than others by design. I'd say go with those.

 

[Skribs]

If you do decide to use birdshot, use something heavy, i.e. something named with a letter instead of a number. Still, something with "buck" in the name is definitely going to penetrate more and is much more likely to reach vitals if properly placed.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Sorry but there are too many reliable reports of people shrugging off various birdshot hits for me to ever trust my life to such ammo. No hand held weapon, even a shotgun full of 00 is a 100% "stopper" so I see no reason to deliberately choose less effective loads.


It's an unfortunate fact that any effective SD round (pistol, rifle or shotgun) will penetrate interior walls with enough energy left to do serious damage on the other side. You best bet is to determine safe "firing lanes" in your apartment of townhome, that minimize the change of hitting a neighbor even if the shot goes through the wall, rather than searching for a mythical load that will stop an attacker in his tracks yet bounce off wallboard.

As you said, there are no 100% stoppers. But deliberately choosing a weapon in a closely populated, domestic, urban area which is powerful enough to virtually ignore minor impediments such as drywall and hollow core doors as your default "home defense weapon" doesn't make sense.

Yes, I will use whatever weapon of opportunity is handy under the circumstances. But given the choice between a 30-30 rifle or a shotgun under typical home defense scenarios, I'd go with the shotgun as my "designated HD weapon". The 30-30 argueably has far greater ability to kill, but cutting loose with such a weapon in a house surrounded by dozens of other houses up and down the block, or an apartment in an apartment complex isn't something that can be ignored when considering something as a home defense weapon.

As for "safe firing lanes"...unless you've armored portions of your dwelling, and the criminal has entered those portions the way they were established for such use, then this makes no sense. In most urban settings, there ARE no 'safe firing lanes'. If it isn't the house across the street that's of concern, it's the on behind it. If it's not the apartment next to yours, it's the building on the other side of the wall. Or the kids playing in the street or playground next door.

Don't get me wrong...I'd use 00 buckshot in a heatbeat if that's what I had handy.

But all of this is entirely off the track from what the OP asked for in the first place. And he's since taken action on some of the passive security improvements he was asking for, while looking into others, so I'd say we've pretty much addressed his question adequately by now.

I'd say it's time to leave the debates on un-solicited weapons and weapons tactics for a more appropriate OP.

 

[Skribs]

As you said, there are no 100% stoppers. But deliberately choosing a weapon in a closely populated, domestic, urban area which is powerful enough to virtually ignore minor impediments such as drywall and hollow core doors as your default "home defense weapon" doesn't make sense.

Anything with enough penetration to reach vitals will penetrate through several walls. There is no magic bullet that will drop an attacker on the spot, but will stop after 1/4 inch of drywall. Using a load in self defense that is likely to not reach vitals doesn't make sense to me.

As a side note, as far as penetration through walls is concerned, if you look at 3 standard self defense options: 1) hollowpoint pistol bullet, 2) service-caliber rifle bullet (.223, .308, 7.62x39) or 3) buckshot, in order of most overpenetration to least it will be:
Pistol
Shotgun
Rifle

Reason is the pistol will fill with drywall, fail to expand, and pass through everything like a FMJ. Shotgun pellets just kind of go through stuff, the rifle round loses a lot more energy when passing through barriers - at least one that is designed to tumble. Slow a rifle bullet down and you lose cavitation trauma, which is how rifles do most of their damage.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Anything with enough penetration to reach vitals will penetrate through several walls. There is no magic bullet that will drop an attacker on the spot, but will stop after 1/4 inch of drywall. Using a load in self defense that is likely to not reach vitals doesn't make sense to me.

As a side note, as far as penetration through walls is concerned, if you look at 3 standard self defense options: 1) hollowpoint pistol bullet, 2) service-caliber rifle bullet (.223, .308, 7.62x39) or 3) buckshot, in order of most overpenetration to least it will be:
Pistol
Shotgun
Rifle

Reason is the pistol will fill with drywall, fail to expand, and pass through everything like a FMJ. Shotgun pellets just kind of go through stuff, the rifle round loses a lot more energy when passing through barriers - at least one that is designed to tumble. Slow a rifle bullet down and you lose cavitation trauma, which is how rifles do most of their damage.

You'll get no argument from me on this, though I would not have considered the rifle to be the last when it comes to over penetration.

All this bruhaha seems to have stemmed from my earlier comment in response to the debate over what shotgun loading to use, where I said "Keep in mind what "stop" means here...it means "stop the assault/break-in/burglary/etc". It doesn't mean "kill or maim", necessarily. I submit to you that if you were to cut loose on someone breaking into your house with a shotgun loaded with ANYTHING, that someone is NOT likely to be interested in continuing with their activities. They're going to be very much interested in getting the heck out of Dodge."

I still stand by that.

Nevertheless, we've pretty much moved off onto a tangent beyond what the OP requested...especially since he's come back to thank us for the suggestions and implimented some of the passive security improvements he was looking for.

I wouldn't mind discussing this in another posting, though. Perhaps one dedicated only to shotgun HD to limit the range of discussion to something reasonable.

 

[mortablunt]

1. "Dogs? I hate dogs." Honestly, dog bark 999/1000 times and nothing happens. After the first couple times, you get complacent and then annoyed.

2. Reinforce doors, lock, windows, and any weak points. Add an alarm system if you can. Slomin's is a great NoVA company.

3. Definitely.

4. And plan safe lanes of fire for in case if you ever have to shoot to protect your space. If you plan your gun based on underpenetration, then you're asking for trouble from a determined assailant. Nothing less than 12" deep.

 

[189854]

To all who don't believe birdshot won't get it done. Check this video out..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gq3RVvL9ZjU

 

[Skribs]

Birdshot creates very gruesome, shallow holes. Especially against a target protected by a ribcage, the birdshot is likely to leave a very ragged hole that will be a surgeon's nightmare, but will not necessarily stop the attack - and stopping the attack is the end goal.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#OVERPENETRATION
USNChief, check out the above link. After going through drywall, pistol bullets clog up and fail to expand, hence why they're the worst. I think the reason drywall affects rifles slightly more is that it is a lighter projectile moving faster. The 5.56mm round needs more velocity to penetrate flesh because it tumbles, exposing a much larger surface area and sacrificing a lot of sectional density to do so.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Birdshot creates very gruesome, shallow holes. Especially against a target protected by a ribcage, the birdshot is likely to leave a very ragged hole that will be a surgeon's nightmare, but will not necessarily stop the attack - and stopping the attack is the end goal.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#OVERPENETRATION
USNChief, check out the above link. After going through drywall, pistol bullets clog up and fail to expand, hence why they're the worst. I think the reason drywall affects rifles slightly more is that it is a lighter projectile moving faster. The 5.56mm round needs more velocity to penetrate flesh because it tumbles, exposing a much larger surface area and sacrificing a lot of sectional density to do so.

The problem with birdshot is that each individual pellet has a very tiny amount of mass...so they have little penetrating power.

Thanks for the link...I'll be out of town for the next week or so, so it may be a little bit before I get to it in detail.

Hollowpoints of any kind have an expansion problem when first going through non-fluid containing material, such as clothing, bone, drywall, doors, etc. This is because the end of the bullet may be deformed (and therefore not be able to perform as designed) or the cavity may be filled with solid debris (again, not be able to perform as designed). Using hollowpoints may not be the best answer in a lot of situations because of this.

I know rifle bullets may not actually be gyro-stabilized (my own term here) for some distance after leaving the barrel, so they may not be presenting the best penetration profile until they do.

Again, thanks for the link...I'll get back to it in about a week and check it out!