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Apparently Britains handgun ban isn't working so well

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by usmarine0352_2005, Sep 19, 2013.

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  1. Carl N. Brown

    Carl N. Brown Member

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    Over the years I have paid more attention to what Colin Greenwood has had to say on British gun laws and gun crime, than to politicians or media.

    Colin Greenwood, Superintendent, West Yorkshire Metropolitan Police,
    writing in 1972 about the effects of half a century of UK gun control
    from the 1920 Firearms Act to the 1968 Firearms Act, in
    Colin Greenwood, "Firearms Control", (Routledge & Kegan
    Paul, London, 1972):
    Comparing the effects of the 1988 restrictions on shotgun certificates, Greenwood concluded "It might be possible to conclude that the law has an immediate effect on the law abiding, but that criminals, by definition, do not obey the law."

    ''Restricting Handguns'', ed. by Don B. Kates, North River Press, 1979,
    includes extensive extracts from Colin Greenwood on pages 33 through 55.

    Colin Greenwood & Joseph Magaddino, "Comparative Cross-Cultural Statistics", in Restricting Handguns 39 (Don Kates ed., 1979).

    Colin Greenwood wrote a critique of of the 2006 Home Office Research Study 298, Gun Crime: The market in and use of illegal firearms. He observed:
    The charts are six years before, 1997, and six years after.

    Code:
    Homicides
    
    Year   Total                      Sawn-off
           Homicide Firearms Shotgun  Shotgun   Pistol 
    1991      725        55       25        7      19
    1992      681        56       20        5      28
    1993      675        74       29       10      35
    1994      727        66       22       14      25
    1995      753        70       18       10      39
    1996      679        49        9        8      30
    1997      753        59       12        4      39
    1998      731        49        4        7      32 *
    1999      761        62        6       13      42
    2000      850        73       12        2      47
    2001      858        97       20        1      59
    2002     1045        81       20        3      40
    2003      858        68        7        4      35
    
    Robberies 
           Total    Total             Sawn-off
    Year   Robbery  Firearms Shotgun  Shotgun   Pistol 
    1991   45,323      5296      381      650    2988
    1992   52,894      5827      406      602    3544
    1993   57,845      5918      437      593    3605
    1994   60,007      4104      274      373    2390
    1995   68,074      3963      235      281    2478
    1996   74,035      3617      224      232    2316
    1997   63,072      3029      121      178    1854
    1998   66,172      2973      138      193    1814 *
    1999   84,277      3922      138      217    2561
    2000   95,154      4081      98       199    2700
    2001   121,375     5323      143      201    3841
    2002   108,045     4776      101      174    3332
    2003   101,195     4117      98       148    2799
    
    *From 1998 onward the figures are for the financial 
    year to 1st April of the following year.
    
     
  2. 9MMare

    9MMare Member

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    Exactly.

    OTOH, drawing against a drawn gun? I guess in a country where no one is supposed to have a gun it might work but otherwise still not alot of great options for most of us regular humans (not Gecko45) that carry.
     
  3. HorseSoldier

    HorseSoldier Member

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    Last time I checked the yearly stats (2008 or 09?) the London metro area for the year prior had over three thousand gun crimes. Not on par with Chicago, but still pretty unimpressive for an allegedly handgun free island where even shotguns are restricted, etc.

    The other issue, of course, is what if the two suspects just had butcher knives? Hope that dog they were walking was a mastiff or something?
     
  4. Pizzapinochle

    Pizzapinochle member

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    UK had about 10,000 gun crimes in 2012
    Population of 63 million = 1 gun crime for every 6300 people

    The US had about 300000 gun crimes in 2012
    Population of 300 million = 1 gun crime for every 1000 people

    Seems to me that the gun ban has had an impact on gun crime.
     
  5. r1derbike

    r1derbike Member

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    Good God man! Have they no shame?
     
  6. 316SS

    316SS Member

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    I assume you are joking.
     
  7. barnbwt

    barnbwt member

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    I assume gun violence is somehow seperable from other violence...

    TCB
     
  8. FIVETWOSEVEN

    FIVETWOSEVEN Member

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    Like having a lower crime rate? CAN'T HAVE THAT!

    Honestly if it wasn't for the gun ban cities like Chicago, I am confident that America would be one of the safest countries in the world.

    You are right, less guns equals less gun crime. Now what about all that other crime? Knives are still deadly, people still are getting mugged and raped.

    If all you wanted was to lower just gun crime then yes they work but it takes awhile for guns to start to get thin among criminals. Only issue with that is the first day of the gun confiscations, crime skyrockets.
     
  9. Art Eatman

    Art Eatman Administrator Staff Member

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    US pro-gun-control folks could stand to do some homework. First off, from BATFE records of production and from FBI reports of the numbers of NICS calls, there have been 190 million firearms sold in the US since 1993, as of December, 2012. I have no numbers for 2013.

    During that time, the number of violent crimes with firearms has decreased, per the Department of Justice. The number of fatalities has decreased, per the Center for Disease Control.

    While it may be that more guns don't necessarily mean less crime, it obviously means that more guns don't mean more crime.
     
  10. RyanM

    RyanM Member

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    Most likely.

    The Pittsburgh area has a very high percentage of CCW holders (IIRC the per-capita CCW permit holder rate of Allegheny county is, or was at some point, the highest of any county in the USA, though that may be due to PA's "must have a permit to transport a pistol in a motor vehicle" law), very active hunting culture, etc. It also has the lowest violent crime rates across the board for any city with a quarter million people or more.

    Also the lowest vehicle-related death rate, though I find that very hard to believe, the way people drive there, and the way pedestrians just walk right into busy streets without looking for cars.

    It's basically the safest big city in the country (as long as you don't talk smack about the Steelers). If it weren't for the terrible economy and businesses shutting down left and right, it'd be perfect.
     
  11. 9MMare

    9MMare Member

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    I'm with the person that commented that of course less guns = less GUN crime, but does it reduce crime overall?
     
  12. Blackstone

    Blackstone Member

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  13. Carl N. Brown

    Carl N. Brown Member

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    You don't measure the effect of British gun law by looking at crime stats other jurisdictions.

    You measure the effect of British gun law by looking at the before and after crime stats of Britain as various gun laws were passed.

    You don't measure the effectiveness of your diet by pointing out Christie weighs 300 lbs but you have only gained ten on your diet.

    See the chart I posted in my 23 Sep 13 response on six years before and after the handgun ban. Britain's gun crime per population was lower before the 1920 Firearms Act, back when anyone could walk into a hardware store and buy a revolver or shotgun.
     
  14. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

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    Not disingenuous at all. It is a simple logic retort. The claim was made that that handgun ban law isn't working so well because of a singular incident specified. Such singular incidents are not in and of themselves validation for the law one way or the other. It is just a singular incident - nothing more. My statement was factual and sincere.
     
  15. Pizzapinochle

    Pizzapinochle member

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    Not according to Mercer rankings of safest cities worldwide...


    http://www.gfmag.com/tools/global-database/ne-data/11938-best-cities-to-live.html#axzz2hnnZNLGh

    See the second listing of Mercer Personal Safety Ranking 2011

    Not a single US city appears in the top fifty.

    For overall quality of life, San Fran, Honolulu, DC and Chicago are the best in the US.
     
  16. Mp7

    Mp7 Member

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    ... not to spoil

    the Gun-Law ranting,

    but i think the likeliness of the "gun"
    being a soft-air lookalike in cases like
    that is like 90%.

    Illegal guns are more `spensive.
     
  17. Pizzapinochle

    Pizzapinochle member

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    Ryan, curious where you got your information regarding pittsburgh.

    According to this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate

    (And i know it is wikipedia, but it just a data table drawn straight from the UCR. I've looked at the UCR, not nearly as easy to read.)

    Pittsburgh is middle of the pack for violent crime rate.

    It is also 17th for murder rate, one spot behind Chicago.
     
  18. GBExpat

    GBExpat Member

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    Actually, their handgun ban is a major success.

    All of their law-abiding citizens have been disarmed ... which, as we, here, all know, is the true intent of such a ban.
     
  19. tommy.duncan

    tommy.duncan Member

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    Can we send Piers Morgan back across the pond now?!?!? Pleeease?!?!?!
     
  20. Manco

    Manco Member

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    The obvious solution is for them to ban shotguns. This may not be relevant to the incident, nor public safety for that matter, but they have to do SOMETHING, right? :rolleyes:
     
  21. Tejicano Loco

    Tejicano Loco Member

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    One other point to understand when trying to compare US murder stats with UK murder stats -

    In the US most law enforcement agencies, when counting the number of murders count the number of reported deaths which were purposely caused by other humans.

    In the UK the number of murders is the number of people killed in which the crime eventually results in a murder conviction. Manslaughter, unsolved, plead down to lower offences, acquital for any reason - those do not get counted.

    So trying to compare the numbers is somewhat like apples to oranges and the UK numbers will be lower.
     
  22. Scrumbag

    Scrumbag Member

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    You know, being British (but happily living, shooting and owning firearms in Switzerland) the UK gun laws and how they are policed just get more embarrassing...

    ATB,

    Scrumbag
     
  23. astra600

    astra600 Member

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    It's the Scotts! When they come back from a trip to Europe no one wants to check under their kilts. :eek:
     
  24. RetiredUSNChief

    RetiredUSNChief Member

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    With respect, all you guys are missing something very important, in the eyes of our Brit cousins:

    "No one was hurt and nothing was stolen."

    Ergo their gun laws must be working.

    :rolleyes:
     
  25. Pizzapinochle

    Pizzapinochle member

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    Well.... that is kind of not accurate. From the same article:

    "Researchers admit that comparisons of crime data between countries must be viewed with caution because of differing criminal justice systems and how crimes are reported and measured."

    Especially relevant in the UK where ANY crime against a person is considered a violent crime.

    This means that an incident of simple battery [misdemeanor, not classified as a violent crime in the US] in the US is NOT classified as a violent crime, in the UK it IS classified as a violent crime.

    Makes the whole practice of comparing based on government reported numbers pretty tough, because you are almost never comparing apples to apples.
     
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