Appendix Carry Issues

[psyopspec]

Thanks for sharing this Fred. I made the switch to AIWB a while back. The final straw was a story on another forum by a man who was robbed by three perpetrators. While unarmed at the time, in his AAR he mentioned that had he been carrying it would have been harder to draw from his typical 4 o'clock IWB successfully with multiple attackers around him at contact distance. He felt that having the weapon in front would have at least made it a more viable option in that situation. That, and regularly being in crowds in the city caused me to make the switch.

I still appreciate any opportunity to be reminded of presence of mind for reholstering. And, I remain leary of what an AIWB rig could do to the pelvis in a car crash, which would be a more likely day to day occurrence than an attack.

 

[cheygriz]

Consider a shoulder holster. I've used them for many years, and never head a problem with comfort, concealment or reholstering.

 

[herrwalther]

I would consider AIWB a more advanced concealed carry technique. Something you should practice with dry runs before taking to a class with someone like Larry Vickers. To those who have been carrying for awhile AIWB is safe and not for someone who just got their first firearm.

 

[SSN Vet]

I've carried Mexican with a Clip Draw.... but only with a handgun that has a reliable thumb safety (that is not prone to getting swiped off accidentally).

I would not carry AIWB unless it was also with a reliable thumb safety.

 

[gp911]

I mostly carry AIWB but only with a kydex holster that protects the trigger, and I reholster very gingerly. Even with a good holster clothing can get caught in the trigger guard when reholstering.

 

[DWebb]

A good holster, by definition, protects the trigger.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Another death attributed to reholstering and appendix carry, though complete lack of training appears to be the main issue.

http://bearingarms.com/man-dies-attempting-appendix-carry-reholster-milkwaukee/

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

AIWB is inherently more dangerous than other methods of carry simply because of the results of a ND, so I can see instructors banning it from their classes. That isn't to say that the technique should be abandoned at large. It just means that the technique requires more training and caution than other techniques. I'm personally a fan of using a clip in holster with this technique so that I can remove the holster, re-holster the gun in my hand, then place the holstered gun back where it belongs.

 

[Deaf Smith]

I have ZERO problems with appendix carry.

Used it for over 20 years.

Those that have AD/NDs do so cause of poor training and/or poor equipment selection.

Deaf

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by DWebb:

A good holster, by definition, protects the trigger.

What kind of good holster ensures that clothing cannot get into the trigger guard?

 

[DWebb]

Any quality holster will prevent entry of clothing into the holster once the gun is placed inside. Clearly, NO HOLSTER can prevent entry while the gun is out. It is the duty of the user to look before holstering. AIWB makes it very easy to check, just look down.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Deaf Smith:

Those that have AD/NDs do so cause of poor training and/or poor equipment selection.

Most often, perhaps , but the best trained people in the world can make mistakes under stress or fatigue.

Posted by DWebb:

Clearly, NO HOLSTER can prevent entry while the gun is out.

Right, and especially on a windy day, it can happen.

It is the duty of the user to look before holstering. AIWB makes it very easy to check, just look down.

I really do not like the idea of having to look down before holstering in a real life use of force situation.

The article about the Milwaukee incident suggests a likelihood that the firearm was a Springfield XD. I carry one because the gun cannot be fired unless the grip safety is depressed. In the course of any given week I holster the gun at least fourteen times, and I can expect an errant shirt tail to interfere about every other week.

I holster by putting force only need the bottom of the grip, leaving the safety untouched.

 

[psyopspec]

I really do not like the idea of having to look down before holstering in a real life use of force situation.

Being able to reholster blindly and at speed isn't going to help win a gunfight. If a threat is present, why not keep the gun in hand–and alternatively, if the threat is passed and it's ok to reholster, why not look down and do so safely? Particularly in light of the near-universal agreement that mistakes can happen under stress, it would seem that's the ideal time for a little more caution.

 

[Kleanbore]

posted by psyopspec:

Being able to reholster blindly and at speed isn't going to help win a gunfight. If a threat is present, why not keep the gun in hand–and alternatively, if the threat is passed and it's ok to reholster, why not look down and do so safely?

"The" threat? How would one know when vigilance no longer essential.

You probably have other more important uses for your visual attention.

"At speed"? Your words, not mine.

Having gun in hand when there isn't a clear and present danger is never a good idea. Good way to get shot.

Hostering safely without looking is one of those things one should be able to do, like replacing a magazine.

 

[psyopspec]

"The" threat? How would one know when vigilance no longer essential.

Starting with the assumption that one reasonably believes there is a threat, if it were me I'd choose not to reholster unless I was reasonably convinced it had passed.

"At speed," got me there; I read into your comment of being able to "holster in a real life use of force situation" as being some sort of 'tactical reholstering.'

Call it stylistic differences I suppose. I don't doubt your ability to safely handle guns and it wouldn't amount to a hill of beans if I did. But if, under day to day conditions my shirts were catching in my holster I'd be making an equipment or wardrobe change, to say nothing of applying more due caution under stress. That would include a glance to make sure I wasn't about to make a horrible mistake.

Different time and place I carried an M9 in a drop leg holster overseas. The times I drew it under stress I don't remember returning it to the holster after, and am almost certain I did so without looking. If clothing or gear had been prone to snarling that motion under normal circumstances (ostensibly increasing the chances of an ND), those chances may have been higher post adrenaline-dump.

At any rate, whatever safely works, informed by the Tillman quote below.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by psyopspec:

Starting with the assumption that one reasonably believes there is a threat, if it were me I'd choose not to reholster unless I was reasonably convinced it had passed.

Do you think you an always divine what "it" is?

Suppose you have drawn for a good, justifiable reason, and the subject of your concern has departed or, has, in the gravest extreme, been disabled.

Was he alone? Did he have a driver, or a tail gunner?

Suppose that you have no basis for a reasonable belief that you are still in imminent danger. You really should not stand around with your gun in hand due to the mere possibility. An officer arriving at the scene may not react the way you would like.

That's probably not a good time, however, to take your eyes off the ball and to become less alert to what may be happening.

But if, under day to day conditions my shirts were catching in my holster I'd be making an equipment or wardrobe change...

If one conceals under a shirt, the risk exists.

That would include a glance to make sure I wasn't about to make a horrible mistake.

Actually, I have never thought about it, but at the moment I cannot recall any trainer anywhere suggesting that one should watch while reholstering.

The best mitigation technique would be to manage the clothing, but if you are calling on your phone, managing a child, holding a leash on a panicked dog, etc. you may not be able to do that.

 

[psyopspec]

Do you think you an always divine what "it" is?

Well, no. That's the reason for speaking plainly but in good faith with reference to reasonable belief. The series of questions you ask would be legitimate to apply to any scenario. Since we're not talking about a specific one, I meant to imply that one had asked those questions, and answered to reasonable satisfaction that the accomplice/tail gunner/ etc. had been addressed.

If someone posed the question "Should I look when holstering my firearm under stress?" I would probably say not to worry about it given proper training. If they added "also, my clothing regularly gets in the way," I might hesitate.

FWIW, since switching to appendix the stakes are a little greater in the event of an ND–put a round into one's own leg at 3 o'clock and they'll likely be among the ~80% of people shot with handguns who survive. At 12/1 o'clock the stakes rise. My focus on the task of holstering has increased proportionally. Admittedly, it could be to an uncommon level, and certainly is relative to what you're comfortable with. Appendix also involves clearing the shirt when holstering every time, and that's why the concept of hanging up in clothing doesn't resonate in my case.

Nothing wrong on a safety or STT level with any of what you're saying. As I said, stylistic differences and all good.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Posted by Deaf Smith

Those that have AD/NDs do so cause of poor training and/or poor equipment selection.

:Most often, perhaps , but the best trained people in the world can make mistakes under stress or fatigue.

And so.. what? They should not carry cause they might make mistakes?

Deaf

 

[Kleanbore]

I meant to imply that one had asked those questions, and answered to reasonable satisfaction that the accomplice/tail gunner/ etc. had been addressed.

My point is that if, after there has been some kind of use of force incident, there are no other perps in view, one had better reholster, pronto.

But that's not a good time to be looking at one's holster or at a contrail in the sky.

If someone posed the question "Should I look when holstering my firearm under stress?" I would probably say not to worry about it given proper training.

Who on Earth teaches reholstering while watching oneself do it?

Appendix also involves clearing the shirt when holstering every time, and that's why the concept of hanging up in clothing doesn't resonate in my case.

Proper training (to manage a shirt tail) can only reduce the risk. A jacket drawstring or some such may seem to have a mind of its own. A shirt tail in the wind can always escape the control of the wearer.

I do not appendix carry, nor will I ever carry anything but a DA revolver or a DA semi auto with a pretty stout, long first pull that could be discharged with only a pull of the trigger.

 

[JN01]

My point is that if, after there has been some kind of use of force incident, there are no other perps in view, one had better reholster, pronto.

But that's not a good time to be looking at one's holster or at a contrail in the sky.

Why not? If the immediate threat has ended and their are no other attackers in view, the greater threat at that moment is having a ND by jamming the gun in a holster without insuring that it is clear.

It shouldn't take more than a second or two to look down as you are pulling your cover garment out of the way.

 

[Kleanbore]

Why not? If the immediate threat has ended and their are no other attackers in view, the greater threat at that moment is having a ND by jamming the gun in a holster without insuring that it is clear.

Having a discharge while rehostering is a risk with serious potential consequences. One certainly should mitigate that risk as effectively as possible.

I cannot see how that is the greatest risk. Your shots will have attracted attention, and you do not want to wrongly identify someone running to the aid of a third party. If there is a tail gunner, and there may well be, you want to know about it in time to react. If a police officer is coming, you want to realize that immediately and mitigate the obvious risks, and perhaps drop the gun rather than try to continue to reholster--you may very well look like an immediate threat to the officer. You want your eyes open.

It shouldn't take more than a second or two to look down as you are pulling your cover garment out of the way.

Two seconds? That's long enough for the average person to cover a distance of ten meters. It's an eternity. There may have been no attackers in view when you decided to reholster, but you cannot count on that observation.

Does anyone really think it is a good idea to not be able to reholster safely and quickly without having to take one's eyes off of other things?

Doesn't anyone here train to reholster without looking?

 

[psyopspec]

Who on Earth teaches reholstering while watching oneself do it?

Not sure I follow what you're getting at; suggesting a glance at an appendix carry holster, (which takes about as long as a blink of the eyes) is clearly a maneuver whose value we weight differently, but I don't think anyone in the thread is saying that one should "watch oneself do it."

 

[Kleanbore]

I don't think I've ever seen anyone other than a complete beginner glance at a holster when reholstering in training, but I won't swear to that. Changing magazines quickly and without looking is a lot more important, and I admit I'm not good at it.

When I holster at home, my eyes are on the dog the whole time, so I can turn, if necessary, to keep from covering her.

I am, of course, keeping my mind on what is below the floor as the barrel goes through its arc.

If I carried a Glock-type firearm without a grip safely, I just might do things differently. But I do not and will not.

 

[Deaf Smith]

I do not appendix carry, nor will I ever carry anything but a DA revolver or a DA semi auto with a pretty stout, long first pull that could be discharged with only a pull of the trigger.

That explains a lot. You feel because you are afraid to carry anything but a weapon with a 'pretty stout, long first pull' that everyone else must be the same way (or needs to be the same way.) To appendix carry is just to 'scary' for you cause one 'might' have a AD/ND if they forget the basic rules.


Ok.... but a lot of others don't have that hangup. 20+ years of appendix carry and not one problem. S&W 640 and Glock 26.

Deaf

 

[matthewpittinger]

I'm a firm believer in appendix carry, and you should spend time on the range with it to learn the draw, repetition is good, but it should be fast out, slow in. I really don't know where this whole speed reholstering thing has came from or if it has always been around, but whenever I'm point at gun at my junk, I make dang sure I'm paying attention to what I'm doing!