Approaching a trespasser (long)

[ccw007]

I was talking to my neighbor yesterday and he was telling me about something that happened to him and I wanted to get everyone’s opinion here. Now to start my neighbor embellishes stuff to make him look "Tough" and he did not much like my reply to his story.

He said that he was out riding his horse and was riding on the edge of a field when the landowner came up and was going to run over him and his horse with his Jeep. He did not say what words were exchanged, but the tone was that it was an argument. He said he said there were no signs so he did not feel he was trespassing. Well he said he reached in to his saddlebag and pulled out his gun and put it on his saddle. I did not get any further in the story once he said this. I was already thinking to myself Bull S***

My first thought is this never happened, but if it did, I do not think anyone would want to hit a horse with a vehicle. It does not even sound logical to me. So let us say that never happened. What I focused on was the way he displayed his gun because I have had to run off trespasser on my dads land before. My first reaction is if they display a gun when on your property while you are telling them to leave than this is an act of aggression and a reasonable person could have feared for his life at that point. In NC, there is no duty to retreat on your property so the landowner could have used deadly force and could had most likely gotten away with it even if he did threaten to run over him and his horse. He was response was he threatened his life first and here is how I laid it out for him.
1. He was trespassing the guy was telling him to leave
2. He showed his gun to intimidate the land owner this would be an act of aggression IMO and I would take it that it could be seen as a refusal to leave the property.
3. He was carrying a concealed weapon with no permit. (The landowner would not know this, but it would help him in an investigation)
4. If he were dead then how would anyone know the guy threatened him first?
He said with your attitude you are going to try to run off a trespasser and someone will need to come find you. My response was well that maybe true, but I would never approach a trespasser alone, and for every action I am going to come back one step harder then my opponent and in the situation he described to me the moment someone displayed a gun like he said he did then lead would have started flying if he did not drop it almost instantly. So what would you do?

 

[Mongo the Mutterer]

Wow. If I understand the situation.

I am the landowner. I approach your friend. I tell him to leave my property and inform him that he is trespassing. (I leave out the part about the horse because that doesn't make sense)

He pulls a gun.

My BS meter just went into overdrive.

If all the above happened, I believe your acquaintance would be in very poor shape to make a statement.

 

[ccw007]

Wow. If I understand the situation.

You understood it the way I meant it. I just wanted to make sure I was not over the top here.
I agree about the hitting horse with the Jeep not making sense. Who would do that unless he showed the weapon first? Then I could see it.

 

[Cisco_Tempe]

Having grown up on a small, working horse ranch in Tucson...I have dealt with trespassers.

99.9% of the time, they were other horse people, or hikers that had wandered off the trails on the state land that bordered our property. Our attitude was always..."As long as you are doing no damage, or bothering stock, you are welcome to cross."

Only one time, did I ever have to chase people off our land, a small group of hikers were rummaging around an OLD barn we never used, and might have fallen on their heads! All it required was a stern word (and my growly German Shepard).

I could see the landowner being irate if his property were being damaged often, and he was tired of it.

However, if your friend were on a horse...and I say this from personal experience...the landowner would probably been more friendly. Horse people, tend to be like gun people...decent folks, and friendly toward one another.

Now, to the meat of the matter...had your friend really pulled a gun...on MY property, I would have blown his ass out of the saddle. PERIOD.

The dummy is lucky he is alive. A horse isn't a stable platform from which to shoot under the best of circumstances, and is easily spooked by a stranger.

A loud WHOOP would have, most likely, caused a shying reaction from the horse, and any shots your "friend" might have delivered would have been wildly inaccurate, and Mr. Landowner would have the advantage.

If it happened even close to the way your friend said it did...he's lucky. Darned lucky.

And as for "trying to hit him with his jeep...coffcoffbullcrapcoffcoff. A jeep hitting a 1500lb horse plus a rider would have been a serious mess.

I am guessing your BS-Meter was right on.

One thing for sure...I'd pass on any invitations to go riding with your friend. He seems to attract folks with a case of the grumpies.

 

[HighVelocity]

Trespasser is told to leave, pulls gun, Landowner calls Coroner. The End.

 

[Kacerdias]

One thing I've noticed in myself once I obtained a CHL and started carrying legally - Toting around a tool that could cause grievous injury or death comes with an enormous burden of responsibility. That responsibility changes your mindset. I'm typically a nice guy anyway but when carrying I go out of my way to settle disputes amicably and courteously even if it means backing down and losing face. A handgun is a weapon of LAST RESORT ONLY. It is not meant as a deterrent to others, it is to stop the use of deadly force against you or those around you.

What your friend should have done - "I'm sorry sir, I didn't realize I was on your land. I meant no disrespect." A sidearm is more than 2 pounds of steel at your side; the personal responsibility for that weapon is far heavier.

Sir, I think you need better friends. This fool is going to end up dead. :banghead:

 

[Carl N. Brown]

A friend of mine hit a deer with his utility vehicle and
suffered $800 damage to the vehicle. The idea of a
landowner ramming a horse ridden by a trespasser is
not reasonable; therefore, the rest of the story is
not believable.

Accepting his story, as a trespasser asked to leave, if
he showed a weapon to intimidate the landowner
he was way out of line. When my cousins and son
have strayed across property lines while ATVing
they have always gone out of their way to be
courteous and non-threatening to landowners even
though they are almost always armed; most landowners
here do not care as long as you ask permission and
do no damage. But our local law does not take
brandishing arms lightly.

One, I believe a charge of "brandishing arms" requires
the muzzle be pointed at a person.
Two, a trespasser responding to a challenge by
a landowner by simply displaying a weapon could
possibly rise to the level of putting "a reasonable
person" in fear of imminent death or greivous bodily
harm, justifying lethal force in self defense.

Trespassers even unintentional are always in the wrong.
If told by a landowner you are trespassing, you say "Sorry,
no offense intended" and you leave. And in most jurisdictions
a landowner can display a weapon as long as it is not pointed
directly at the trespasser (always check local law!).
In a confrontation on someone else's land, you de-escalate.
You are in the wrong, you show respect even if they show
none, and you leave, period.

That neighbor is both morally and legally wrong if
he actually did as he claimed. If you cannot convince him
of the error of his ways, you do not need him as a friend.

 

[Hobie]

...One, I believe a charge of "brandishing arms" requires the muzzle be pointed at a person.

In VA, displaying the weapon to intimidate is brandishing. Ii don't believe that aiming or pointing is an element of the charge.

 

[Lupinus]

Gather round brothers and sisters for the raising of the flag

anyone got a trumpet?

LOL that flag has never been used more appropriately

 

[ccw007]

Yea I am sure this did not happen or if it did not the way he said it did. I do not hang around him much anymore because he lies so much. What is funny is when we used to hang out he would tell a story and his wife would tell my wife that is not the way the particular incident happened and I would hear the real version later. I think we end this conversation with me telling him he is luck to be alive if he did what he said he did.

 

[nfl1990]

In CT if someone can tell what type of gun your carrying, (so the police know he didn't make a lucky guess) it is considered brandishing.

Since this is in S&T I'm guessing you want opinons on how to handle this situtation, I think that you would need at least two people to handle this situation properly, 1 to talk to the person, and the other hidden, (but not out of earshot) with a scoped rifle in case the guy draws, or does something else equally threatening.

 

[hso]

Idiot neighbor.

Trespasser acts hostile brandishing firearm. Langowner has no gun. Landowner drives off and fetchs rifle. Landowner returns to remove idiot tresspasser from property or gene pool.

As to what the appropriate approach would be, "Sorry sir, which way to public land?", or from my side "Son, long as you don't intend to hunt or hurt anything you're welcome to ride through today. No fires, no shooting, and close the gates and you're welcome."

 

[TrapperReady]

Have your neighbor come up to Wisconsin in a couple weeks and pull a gun on a landowner. We'll see if the deer hunters up here have increased their situational awareness (and response).

 

[Double Naught Spy]

He said that he was out riding his horse and was riding on the edge of a field when the landowner came up and was going to run over him and his horse with his Jeep. He did not say what words were exchanged, but the tone was that it was an argument. He said he said there were no signs so he did not feel he was trespassing. Well he said he reached in to his saddlebag and pulled out his gun and put it on his saddle. I did not get any further in the story once he said this. I was already thinking to myself Bull S***

I am guessing your friend would have had to cross a fence to be on somebody else's property unless you have an open range situation there.

Just because there are no signs does not mean a person is not trespassing. Whether or not he "felt" like he was trespassing is meaningless. Trespassing is not identified by how the trespasser feels about his own activities.

Trespassing with no signs becomes trespassing when the 'guest' is informed by the landowner that he is not wanted and should leave. This goes for open country land and house lots in the big city. Failure to leave when told to leave by the owner or agent of the owner makes it trepassing.

 

[gentleman farmer]

keep eyes open

The same thing happen to my father just last week only the horse people made the mistake of face down him on his front porch after cutting a gate open ( happens weekly it's horse riders or atv riders l.e.o dont care ) I have nothing bad to say about them if they would ask but most don't. the point I am writing about is this day and age they could be growing or stashing drugs on your land to cover it up so they dont get caught with it It has happen several times in my county here in missouri Now me and my brothers take turns checking the place and running off non-guest The day this happened I was with a fellow gunnie at the range thank god My dad had a colt double eagle he and my mother are both older and cant move real good so he had his own back up if the riders had done more than use foul language when dad told them to leave If they would pulled a weapon they would have been there when I got back pulling a weapon of any kind when uninvited on someone's place can be a very bad idea .

 

[Smoke]

I deal with trespassers regularly. Never had anyone yank out a gun, have had a lot argue claiming they weren't trespassing (wrong) were lost (poor excuse) or "had permission" (they didn't)

Had one pulled a gun they would have got the same treatment as the arguers....asked one more time to leae, tehn I leave and call the sheriff. I ask once and refuse to argue. IF they persist, they go to jail.

Smoke

 

[Byron Quick]

I personally don't approach trespassers if alone. If you see me, then-guess what? Someone has a scoped rifle centered right over your shoulder. You present a weapon and you're dead.

I've chased trespassers off of family land. And I've shadowed trespassers that never saw me for I was alone. But if you see me and I'm talking to you of your trespassing then I've got immediate backup awaiting you being stupid.

And something else, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to check property records these days. It's downright amazing how many folks don't mind horsemen crossing their land if they don't cut fences and ask permission first. Even in the east.

 

[hillbilly]

In western Arkansas, a trespasser on horseback would probably not be considered a threat and would probably be allowed to ride on through as long as no damage was being done, fences were left unharmed, etc.

However, if a trespasser in western Arkansas, on horseback or otherwise, ever pulled a gun on the landowner, said trespasser would just be begging to get shot.

It would be perfectly legal under Arkansas law.

Just brandishing a gun is considered "deadly force" in Arkansas and any trespasser who pulled a gun on a landowner would be seen reasonably as a direct, imminent threat, and thus eligible for a completely legal deadly force response.

hillbilly

 

[Blue Jays]

Hi All-

I've wandered onto private property while riding my mountainbike in large public wooded areas. When I've bumped into landowners I apologize for the inconvenience and ask for the quickest way back to the trails. My conversations have always been pleasant and completely without incident.

The neighbor bragging about pulling a firearm from his saddlebag is full of sh*t and a complete liar.

~ Blue Jays ~