I thought I’d post an incident that occurred with me on Friday of last week. I wanted to hold off writing anything until I was able to speak with the Sheriff’s Office on Monday.
I spoke with them on Monday, and I feel comfortable posting now.
Let me preface by saying that this wasn’t some kind of break-in, etc. It was trespassing. However, I post because it brought some very real concerns to my consciousness.
Some of you will believe that I over-reacted. I disagree, but you are welcome to your opinions. I have very valid reasons and concerns as to why I reacted as I did. For some, those will never be considered valid, and I respect that. All I can say is that unless you are in that circumstance and recognize the uncertainties and variables that CAN happen, you really don’t know. I do know this, however: I have absolutely no reason to trust a person that I do not know, and I feel that it is a mistake to allow unsubstantiated trust cause you to put yourself in a vulnerable position.
Do remember that many police officers get killed on routine traffic stops.
So, here it goes.
At approximately 4:00 PM CST (I was running late), I set off to go deer hunting. Because I was running late, I decided to go to the deer stand that I have behind my house—I can walk to that one from my house. As usual, I am carrying my 24” stainless steel LR-308 with a 4-round magazine, and I am carrying a 1911A1 .45ACP in a holster. I’ve got a book and a drink in my two coat pockets.
As I get about 20 yards from my deer stand, I hear a noise in the deer stand. I’ve had squirrels and such get into the stand, so I didn’t think so much about it. However, in a split-second, I see a flash of light in the window of the stand. It takes a moment to recognize that the light was reflection from the glass of a scope! That flash of light meant that light just reflected off the objective lens of an optic—meaning a rifle was pointed directly AT me from inside the deer stand!
I immediately lunge off to the right side and yell out “Who’s there!” I do this for two reasons:
1.) Hopefully, get out of the line of fire.
2.) Identify myself as a human and not a deer.
I can still see the rifle’s muzzle pointed out of the deer stand and the person inside says nothing. Here’s how I could see it:
I couldn’t go forward and I couldn’t go back. I wasn’t about to hit the woods to make it back to the house because some hunters are known to shoot at sounds. I wasn’t about to get out on the road and make myself an easy target, and the person in the stand has not made any effort to say anything or lower his rifle.
I decided that I needed control of this situation, or I was possibly going to get shot. (I recognized that this was a possibility regardless of what I did.)
I shoulder my LR-308 and throw off the safety. I lean out and sight the window of the stand over my optic and yell loudly “Raise your rifle NOW and get your hands where I can see them immediately, or I will fire!”
Finally, this got his attention. I saw the muzzle of the rifle move away from me, and he started to say something to me. I told him that we could talk when he was on the ground and that as long as he was up there, he was a threat. I then reminded him not to make any sudden movements and to keep his hands in the window so that I could see them. I then told him to kick the door open with his foot and to swing out onto the ladder to come down.
When he got out on the ladder and turned around, I could see that he had a semiautomatic handgun stuck in his coverall pocket without a holster. I didn’t say anything at this point, since he was on the ladder and both his hands were occupied getting down.
While he was on the ladder, I learned something else. My LR-308 gets REAL heavy when holding it as such an extreme upward angle with no support. I took the chance to knee down and quickly set the rifle down in the grass while unholstering my 1911A1.
When the person got to the ground and both his feet were on the ground, I told him to keep his hands on the ladder, and that I knew that he had a handgun in his right pocket. I told him not to make any quick moves or go for the gun. I told him that he needed to place the handgun on the ground and that he needed to get this right the first time. To get it on the ground, I told him that he needed to take the grip with his thumb and first finger and NOT to grab it, and I told him to do so slowly. He did so, and placed the firearm on the ground. I then instructed him to step several steps away from the firearm, and that then we could talk.
I informed him that I had no way of knowing if he had any more weapons and that he needed to keep his hands where I could see them, and out of pockets. I also told him that he needed to keep his distance from me.
During this time, I kept my 1911A1 unholstered and with the safety off but pointed at an angle to him. At this time, the only weapons that I am aware of that he has is the hunting rifle that was left in the deer stand, and the semiautomatic handgun that is on the ground at the base of the deer stand. My LR-308 is behind me laying in the grass.
I decide to try to get some information before calling the police. I shouldn’t have done this, but there were some circumstances that made me consider not calling the police. I’ll explain.
I was able to piece a few things together.
First, the person was a young Hispanic male (22 years old.) We don’t have a huge Hispanic population here, and the only Hispanic people anywhere near me are a group that lives in a property nearby. These people work for a man that goes to my church. I am inclined to keep good relations with the employer due to church and community connections. I was tempted to be willing to let the employer/landlord handle the situation if I could. After all, this did seem to be a simple case of trespassing/poaching with no malicious intent towards me. (This was the case.)
I wanted to get information that would help me determine if what I suspected was true, so I ask the man his name. He gave a name that was spoke quickly and even though I took 5 years of Spanish, I didn’t do so well with it. I said, “OK. That didn’t work. I am going to need to see your ID if I am going to consider not calling the police.” He says that he does not have an ID on him, and that it is in his truck.
Now I am really starting to piece things together. You see, about 35 minutes before this incident, I saw a guy in camouflage coveralls in front of the tenant property talking with the other people there. I didn’t know if it was one of the people that live there or a guest. Being the guy I am, I waved as I passed and they all waved back. So I KNEW that he was at the house.
I asked him where his truck was and he said that it was in a town about 1.5 hours away. He never would tell me how he managed to get down here without driving his truck. I then asked him if he worked for the employer I mentioned earlier in this thread. He stated that he did not. I then asked if he knew the people that lived in that house. Again, he stated that he did not.
As I saw it, I was just completely lied to regarding the last point—since I saw him earlier in their yard. Because he told me that he didn’t work for the employer mentioned earlier in this thread, I have no reason to have that relationship as a consideration.
I inform the person that I would have to call the police to deal with this matter. I tell him that he was not to make any sudden movements while we were waiting for the police.
It takes about 45 minutes for the police to arrive. A cruiser comes and handcuffs the guy. He takes my statements and took possession of the person’s Savage 110 .270 rifle and a S&W .40 two-tone handgun.
The Sheriff’s Deputy informs me that I will need to come to the office on Monday morning to pick up the report and to press charges if I intended to do so.
I was really up in the air about if I was going to follow through on charges. As I figured it, 2 nights in jail (Friday-Monday) was pretty tough for trespassing.
However, on Monday, I discover that he was bonded out on Friday night. I pressed charges.
Here are the interesting things:
First, he was bonded out without giving any identification.
Second, he was bonded out without providing an address.
Third, it was listed on the report that he was not a US Citizen, yet there is no indication that they looked into the weapons ownership eligibility.
As I figure, he will never get served to come to court.
The fine that he would have paid for trespassing is $500. However, because he will probably not ever show up again, he will lose the Savage 110 and the S&W .40 that the police kept for “safekeeping.” He would probably have been better off paying the fine.
Now, some of you have read this and think that I overreacted or was a bit over aggressive in the matter.
I can only say this….
I am standing in the woods with this person and no witnesses other than God above. What is preventing this person from solving his problem by killing me and leaving? We hear gunshots around here all the time during hunting season. No one would have noticed this one. It would have been several hours before anyone even found my body.
What do I know of this person? I do not recognize him and I do not know his past. Does he have outstanding warrants? Does he think that this is going to cause him to get deported? Is he wanted elsewhere? Is there anything holding him to this area that would make killing me and moving on a troublesome possibility? Is this guy scared of the fact that the police will run his record and discover something?
I don’t know the answer to any of that. I don’t have any reason to believe otherwise, and I can’t find anything that makes me want to trust him more than I want to stay alive.
Remember, many police officers get killed or shot on routine traffic stops.
Here are a couple things that I should point out:
1. I treated this like a threat until the police arrived and the threat was removed.
2. I did not detain the person. I informed him that he was not going to pick up a weapon anywhere near me, but I never told him specifically that he was detained.
3. I would have let him leave if he chose to turn and walk away. I wasn’t going to shoot a guy in the back if he walked off, but if he chose to do so, he would do so without his weapons.
4. I did not expressly state #3 but I told him that only rapid movements or moves toward me would be considered a threat and treated as such.
All in all, I think that this was a bad situation—being that it was so secluded and there was so many ways that a person could have acted against me without no witnesses and a very real possibility of getting away with it.
I do think that I handled the situation rather assertively, but I do not feel that I would handle it any differently if I had to do it again in that regard. I’m sure that there were some mistakes that I made, or some risks that I took (putting down the LR-308), but circumstances don’t always fit our theories.
I have included a crude map of the area that this occurred. The yellow line is the line that it seems that he took to get to the stand, and the pink line is the route that I take to get to that deer stand.
Yesterday, my father and I walked the pipeline and found evidence that people have been traveling that pipeline more than just that day. There were a number of tracks going in both directions.
Furthermore, we walked the Fire Line that comes close to my house. My wife as said several times that she thought someone was in the woods over there. I figured it was a deer. However, I discovered several footprints on the fire line—many close enough that you could watch my house through the woods!
My father and I are considering how we can address those concerns now.
At any rate, there it is.
-- John
The crude map:
I spoke with them on Monday, and I feel comfortable posting now.
Let me preface by saying that this wasn’t some kind of break-in, etc. It was trespassing. However, I post because it brought some very real concerns to my consciousness.
Some of you will believe that I over-reacted. I disagree, but you are welcome to your opinions. I have very valid reasons and concerns as to why I reacted as I did. For some, those will never be considered valid, and I respect that. All I can say is that unless you are in that circumstance and recognize the uncertainties and variables that CAN happen, you really don’t know. I do know this, however: I have absolutely no reason to trust a person that I do not know, and I feel that it is a mistake to allow unsubstantiated trust cause you to put yourself in a vulnerable position.
Do remember that many police officers get killed on routine traffic stops.
So, here it goes.
At approximately 4:00 PM CST (I was running late), I set off to go deer hunting. Because I was running late, I decided to go to the deer stand that I have behind my house—I can walk to that one from my house. As usual, I am carrying my 24” stainless steel LR-308 with a 4-round magazine, and I am carrying a 1911A1 .45ACP in a holster. I’ve got a book and a drink in my two coat pockets.
As I get about 20 yards from my deer stand, I hear a noise in the deer stand. I’ve had squirrels and such get into the stand, so I didn’t think so much about it. However, in a split-second, I see a flash of light in the window of the stand. It takes a moment to recognize that the light was reflection from the glass of a scope! That flash of light meant that light just reflected off the objective lens of an optic—meaning a rifle was pointed directly AT me from inside the deer stand!
I immediately lunge off to the right side and yell out “Who’s there!” I do this for two reasons:
1.) Hopefully, get out of the line of fire.
2.) Identify myself as a human and not a deer.
I can still see the rifle’s muzzle pointed out of the deer stand and the person inside says nothing. Here’s how I could see it:
I couldn’t go forward and I couldn’t go back. I wasn’t about to hit the woods to make it back to the house because some hunters are known to shoot at sounds. I wasn’t about to get out on the road and make myself an easy target, and the person in the stand has not made any effort to say anything or lower his rifle.
I decided that I needed control of this situation, or I was possibly going to get shot. (I recognized that this was a possibility regardless of what I did.)
I shoulder my LR-308 and throw off the safety. I lean out and sight the window of the stand over my optic and yell loudly “Raise your rifle NOW and get your hands where I can see them immediately, or I will fire!”
Finally, this got his attention. I saw the muzzle of the rifle move away from me, and he started to say something to me. I told him that we could talk when he was on the ground and that as long as he was up there, he was a threat. I then reminded him not to make any sudden movements and to keep his hands in the window so that I could see them. I then told him to kick the door open with his foot and to swing out onto the ladder to come down.
When he got out on the ladder and turned around, I could see that he had a semiautomatic handgun stuck in his coverall pocket without a holster. I didn’t say anything at this point, since he was on the ladder and both his hands were occupied getting down.
While he was on the ladder, I learned something else. My LR-308 gets REAL heavy when holding it as such an extreme upward angle with no support. I took the chance to knee down and quickly set the rifle down in the grass while unholstering my 1911A1.
When the person got to the ground and both his feet were on the ground, I told him to keep his hands on the ladder, and that I knew that he had a handgun in his right pocket. I told him not to make any quick moves or go for the gun. I told him that he needed to place the handgun on the ground and that he needed to get this right the first time. To get it on the ground, I told him that he needed to take the grip with his thumb and first finger and NOT to grab it, and I told him to do so slowly. He did so, and placed the firearm on the ground. I then instructed him to step several steps away from the firearm, and that then we could talk.
I informed him that I had no way of knowing if he had any more weapons and that he needed to keep his hands where I could see them, and out of pockets. I also told him that he needed to keep his distance from me.
During this time, I kept my 1911A1 unholstered and with the safety off but pointed at an angle to him. At this time, the only weapons that I am aware of that he has is the hunting rifle that was left in the deer stand, and the semiautomatic handgun that is on the ground at the base of the deer stand. My LR-308 is behind me laying in the grass.
I decide to try to get some information before calling the police. I shouldn’t have done this, but there were some circumstances that made me consider not calling the police. I’ll explain.
I was able to piece a few things together.
First, the person was a young Hispanic male (22 years old.) We don’t have a huge Hispanic population here, and the only Hispanic people anywhere near me are a group that lives in a property nearby. These people work for a man that goes to my church. I am inclined to keep good relations with the employer due to church and community connections. I was tempted to be willing to let the employer/landlord handle the situation if I could. After all, this did seem to be a simple case of trespassing/poaching with no malicious intent towards me. (This was the case.)
I wanted to get information that would help me determine if what I suspected was true, so I ask the man his name. He gave a name that was spoke quickly and even though I took 5 years of Spanish, I didn’t do so well with it. I said, “OK. That didn’t work. I am going to need to see your ID if I am going to consider not calling the police.” He says that he does not have an ID on him, and that it is in his truck.
Now I am really starting to piece things together. You see, about 35 minutes before this incident, I saw a guy in camouflage coveralls in front of the tenant property talking with the other people there. I didn’t know if it was one of the people that live there or a guest. Being the guy I am, I waved as I passed and they all waved back. So I KNEW that he was at the house.
I asked him where his truck was and he said that it was in a town about 1.5 hours away. He never would tell me how he managed to get down here without driving his truck. I then asked him if he worked for the employer I mentioned earlier in this thread. He stated that he did not. I then asked if he knew the people that lived in that house. Again, he stated that he did not.
As I saw it, I was just completely lied to regarding the last point—since I saw him earlier in their yard. Because he told me that he didn’t work for the employer mentioned earlier in this thread, I have no reason to have that relationship as a consideration.
I inform the person that I would have to call the police to deal with this matter. I tell him that he was not to make any sudden movements while we were waiting for the police.
It takes about 45 minutes for the police to arrive. A cruiser comes and handcuffs the guy. He takes my statements and took possession of the person’s Savage 110 .270 rifle and a S&W .40 two-tone handgun.
The Sheriff’s Deputy informs me that I will need to come to the office on Monday morning to pick up the report and to press charges if I intended to do so.
I was really up in the air about if I was going to follow through on charges. As I figured it, 2 nights in jail (Friday-Monday) was pretty tough for trespassing.
However, on Monday, I discover that he was bonded out on Friday night. I pressed charges.
Here are the interesting things:
First, he was bonded out without giving any identification.
Second, he was bonded out without providing an address.
Third, it was listed on the report that he was not a US Citizen, yet there is no indication that they looked into the weapons ownership eligibility.
As I figure, he will never get served to come to court.
The fine that he would have paid for trespassing is $500. However, because he will probably not ever show up again, he will lose the Savage 110 and the S&W .40 that the police kept for “safekeeping.” He would probably have been better off paying the fine.
Now, some of you have read this and think that I overreacted or was a bit over aggressive in the matter.
I can only say this….
I am standing in the woods with this person and no witnesses other than God above. What is preventing this person from solving his problem by killing me and leaving? We hear gunshots around here all the time during hunting season. No one would have noticed this one. It would have been several hours before anyone even found my body.
What do I know of this person? I do not recognize him and I do not know his past. Does he have outstanding warrants? Does he think that this is going to cause him to get deported? Is he wanted elsewhere? Is there anything holding him to this area that would make killing me and moving on a troublesome possibility? Is this guy scared of the fact that the police will run his record and discover something?
I don’t know the answer to any of that. I don’t have any reason to believe otherwise, and I can’t find anything that makes me want to trust him more than I want to stay alive.
Remember, many police officers get killed or shot on routine traffic stops.
Here are a couple things that I should point out:
1. I treated this like a threat until the police arrived and the threat was removed.
2. I did not detain the person. I informed him that he was not going to pick up a weapon anywhere near me, but I never told him specifically that he was detained.
3. I would have let him leave if he chose to turn and walk away. I wasn’t going to shoot a guy in the back if he walked off, but if he chose to do so, he would do so without his weapons.
4. I did not expressly state #3 but I told him that only rapid movements or moves toward me would be considered a threat and treated as such.
All in all, I think that this was a bad situation—being that it was so secluded and there was so many ways that a person could have acted against me without no witnesses and a very real possibility of getting away with it.
I do think that I handled the situation rather assertively, but I do not feel that I would handle it any differently if I had to do it again in that regard. I’m sure that there were some mistakes that I made, or some risks that I took (putting down the LR-308), but circumstances don’t always fit our theories.
I have included a crude map of the area that this occurred. The yellow line is the line that it seems that he took to get to the stand, and the pink line is the route that I take to get to that deer stand.
Yesterday, my father and I walked the pipeline and found evidence that people have been traveling that pipeline more than just that day. There were a number of tracks going in both directions.
Furthermore, we walked the Fire Line that comes close to my house. My wife as said several times that she thought someone was in the woods over there. I figured it was a deer. However, I discovered several footprints on the fire line—many close enough that you could watch my house through the woods!
My father and I are considering how we can address those concerns now.
At any rate, there it is.
-- John
The crude map:
