Incident regarding trespassing/poaching

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Just my opinion, but it's very possible that the illegal(s) in that house is probably a multi-family dwelling like they do, and decided to hunt deer to get free food to feed all the mouths they may have to feed. Around here, sometimes there are five families in one house and they pull all their money together so they can drive nice vehicles and the like.
I wouldn't doubt that is the case here.
 
I can't believe someone would defend pointing your rifle at a person you have no intent or legal reason to shoot because it's convenient to use your scope. It's unsafe, it violates at least two of the basic rules of firearm safety and it's probably a felony in most states.
 
it's probably a felony in most states.

if it isn't it should be. though one would hope it happens very rarely. i've used a scope like that but only removed from the gun
 
Since you asked:

I think your judgement was poor. You verbally identified yourself and the guy chose not to respond. You clearly were not going to be mistaken for game at this point.

You ordered the guy to show his hands or you would fire?

You pushed a bad situation and luckily came out of it ok. Try calling the police, a lot less risk involved.

I guess you asked yourself if it was worth getting shot over a hunting violation and concluded it was. Sometimes ego will get you killed.
 
beatcop wrote:

Since you asked:

I think your judgement was poor. You verbally identified yourself and the guy chose not to respond. You clearly were not going to be mistaken for game at this point.

No, I should not have been mistaken for game animals. At that point, if I were shot, it would have been deliberate. And I wasn't comfortable with that prospect, standing in the open in the middle of the woods isolated.

You ordered the guy to show his hands or you would fire?

Yes.

You pushed a bad situation and luckily came out of it ok. Try calling the police, a lot less risk involved.

I did call the police. As I stated, I could not reverse my tracks without going in to the line of fire, and I couldn't go through the woods. The police arrived 45 minutes later. I was ALREADY in risk.

But you do bring up a VERY valid point-- I perhaps should have called the police prior to disarming the person and getting him down.

Maybe... maybe not. The guy knew enough English to have understood what I was doing. If he had outstanding warrants, he may have chosen to prevent the police from coming the instant I called. He had that ability.

I guess you asked yourself if it was worth getting shot over a hunting violation and concluded it was. Sometimes ego will get you killed.

This had nothing to do with ego.


I truly appreciate your assessment, and your opinion. I've made an attempt to think through the situation with the perspective you have offered. The only "iffy" area was calling 911 immediately, but as I think it through, that in ITSELF contained significant liabilities, and very well may have ESCALATED the situation if this person had reason not to have police arrive.

So while I do thank you for the opinion, I don't think I can share your assessment.



-- John
 
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Thanks for the civil response, I'm glad you didn't get hurt.

There's no doubt I wouldn't want anyone on my property either.

You were there, I wasn't.
 
They probably learned the hard way not to bother with INS ... they (INS) could give a rats ass.

PW County VA has a policy of detaining any Illegals they picked up for criminal activity for the INS to come pick them up. They made prior arrangements with INS before they started this practice.

As it turned out, INS takes MONTHS before they bothered to come collect anybody (and the county had collected several HUNDRED illegals), and ended up costing the county several million dollars to house/feed/medical for these detainees.

Oh, and once they had them, INS cut most of them loose with a hearing date they are suppose to show up for. (ya, and I've got some ocean front property in Utah I want to sell ya ...) :cuss:

Maybe you should put the INS on speedial, evidently local LEOs did not consider those violation serious enough to further contact the INS to take custody.
 
IMHO it's simply not worth placing your life in jeopardy, nor taking a life over a deer hunting spot.

Red Dirt Ranger,
Given the circumstances JWarren found himself in, oh his property, I am curious as to how you would have handled it, if you found yourself in the same situation?
 
I did call the police. As I stated, I could not reverse my tracks without going in to the line of fire, and I couldn't go through the woods. The police arrived 45 minutes later. I was ALREADY in risk.

To me, that is a very persuasive argment that John's actions were well chosen.

We who were were not there can argue in the abstract one way or the other, but when one can neither go back nor go forward without exposing himself to potential gunfire in a remote place, abstract platitudes won't do him any good at all.
 
"PW County VA has a policy of detaining any Illegals they picked up for criminal activity for the INS to come pick them up. They made prior arrangements with INS before they started this practice.

As it turned out, INS takes MONTHS before they bothered to come collect anybody (and the county had collected several HUNDRED illegals), and ended up costing the county several million dollars to house/feed/medical for these detainees."


really? you got a source for that?
 
Oh ya ... all over the Washington Post, WTOP.com news. The stories were a few months to a year back. There was a pretty healthy discussion on WTOP that led a number of us to sending the PW County treasurer some $ to be "well spent". I sent them $100 myself.

I'll see if they still have any of the links live.

Ah ha! Here, this should get you started!

http://www.wtopnews.com/?nid=183&st...=1&term=Prince+william+county+illegal+aliens#

"PW County VA has a policy of detaining any Illegals they picked up for criminal activity for the INS to come pick them up. They made prior arrangements with INS before they started this practice.

As it turned out, INS takes MONTHS before they bothered to come collect anybody (and the county had collected several HUNDRED illegals), and ended up costing the county several million dollars to house/feed/medical for these detainees."


really? you got a source for that?
 
The federal agency compensates the jail for holding its suspects, but those who are also charged with state or local crimes must serve out their sentences before they can be transferred to ICE for possible deportation. Another factor driving costs is that inmates who face local charges who might have been released on bond are being held for ICE. The jail picks up the bill.

Meletis said he had not calculated what that extra cost would be. "I'm sure there are people in that category, but I don't know how many," he said.
 
After reading your story I feel you handled the situation well.

A trespasser is on your property with multiple weapons and pointing one at you. You got out of the obvious line of fire and took concealment. You ordered the guy to not fire/come down/explain. You called the Police :rolleyes: and they showed up. :rolleyes: You didn't get killed and you didn't have to explain why you killed someone. :)

Did one hell of a job in my book.

Just remember the Wisconsin incident. If you kick someone out of your tree id be ready to through lead back if need be. Sad world but its life and we have to live with it.
__________________

+1 this is what I was thinking while reading the story.

Good Job
 
I don't think anyone could have done a better job given all the variables and the stress of the situation. We have to deal with a constant tresspassing problem on our deer club here in Ga. It is unsettling being in the woods not knowing who might be there and that they are certainly armed.
 
I just had something very similar to this happen to me Saturday night.

It's a long story, to make it short, he was approaching in the dark, with a bright light shining in the back of my boat ( i was down in the cabin), the whole time shouting at me, "Who is that?" I kept responding my name, and, "Who are you?" He wouldn't answer, and as he was stepping onto my boat, I said, "I have a gun" and he still kept getting onto the boat and walked right up to the cabin entrance and shined the light directly in my face, when he saw my shotgun (loaded in my hand), for a short ammount of time he just stood there with the light in my face (seemed like forever), then he about fell off his feet and fled rapidly. I have no idea who he is, or what he wanted.

My reasoning for saying I have a gun, is that I thought if the person was an officer, he would quickly identify himself (police offers are not allowed to board a vessel without permission, unless it is a federal officer of some sort), and that if he meant no harm, he would quickly identify himself.

What scared me was that fact he kept approaching and walked right up to the cabin entrance and shined the light right in my face (as if to blind me), after being told I had a weapon.

I was very shaken up by this event. First time I have ever been in a situation like that, I do not think I handled it all that well.
 
At that time, I unchambered the round in my handgun and holstered the weapon.

Why did you unchamber? Do you always carry with no round in the chamber?

I've been in the same situation. Going to my stand and saw a reflection, used my binoculars to see a guy in my stand aiming a scoped rifle at me.

The circumstances were different as an oak tree that would definitely constitute cover was immediately to my right. I took that cover. From that point I was able to approach my stand in concealment from the rear of the stand. The leaves were wet from a recent rain and I could thus approach with little sound.

Another oak tree provided cover close to the rear of the stand. I told the tresspasser to unload his rifle, throw the ammunition on the ground and to use the rope tied to the stand to lower his rifle to the ground. And to hold his rifle by the muzzle in his right hand and leave immediately and never return.

I was miles from cell phone coverage and just wanted the man gone from the property.

Personally, I won't attempt to prevent a person from leaving in a situation where I am alone. In most situations I will instruct the person to leave.

I understand holding the trespasser for the police. In view of the likely response time though, I think having him unload his weapons and then leave might have been more prudent. Have him drop his pants around his ankles and shuffle off hobbled.

I'm not criticizing though. Just pointing out alternatives. That was a stressful forty five minute wait.

I've seldom approached trespassers. I prefer to observe from concealment. When I'm with friends, one of us would approach them while being covered by others from concealment and cover with an agreed unobtrusive movement being the signal that the trespassers are hostile and about to initiate violence. Luckily that signal has never been given.

When I'm alone, trespassers don't see me if I see them first.
 
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I think you handled yourself very well. With no cover around, and a barrel trained on you, it doesn't make sense to call the police. You wouldn't be doing yourself much a favor to try and keep your 15 pound rifle fixed on a man while screwin around with a phone in the other. I perhaps would have had him lean his rifle out of the window, so you could see he did not have it in his hands (at this time, though he could have still been armed, and was, you knew for sure that he had one weapon). You chose the right time to rest your rifle and draw the pistol, while his hands and feet were occupied on the ladder. 4 shots and a bolt action up close could have spelled disaster. The manner in which you instructed him to disarm himself, while ready to take a shot quicker than he could have was a good choice. I may have had him lay flat on the tummy with his arms stretched out so you'd have an absolute drop on the guy if he put you in the worst of positions. All in all, considering your particular scenario, you handled this very well and it called for aggresiveness to take control of the situation and do what you could to walk away from it alive. The guy not responding to you, and continuing to point his barrel at you, that speaks to me he was contemplating whether or not to shoot. This was not a man to be treated with kid gloves, and I'm glad to hear it didn't turn into a bolt action shoot out esp one beginning with you in the sights.

I live in WI, where you may remember a trespasser in a treestand opening fire on the owners with an SKS. This could have really turned ugly, you did the right thing.

Be safe, and mind yourself even on your own property. I'm sure you won't need to hear that from me or anyone else for you to do it after this. It's a shame you should have to worry about shooting anything except what you left for, but even moreso they let this joker just waltz out. Speaks volumes that the police took so long to show up, that you would likely have to take this into your own hands again should history repeat itself.

No matter how FUBAR this situation was, there in an invaluable lesson to learn from it. Now is the time for you to consider what to do before finding yourself in that situation in the future, and what you could pre-emptitively do to advantage or remove yourself from the situation before you are again endangered. Checking with your scope from safety as you mentioned is wise. After examining your actions, I think you acted very soundly in your split second decisions. No matter how foul a situation, all you can do is learn from it this time so you won't have to repeat that lesson. The outcome could be tragic next time.

Be safe,
All the best
 
Follow up

Have you been following up on this case? Do you know whether the guy is safe or dangerous? At this moment you have situation that would keep me on high alert. This guy could get mad or talk himself into getting mad, or his friends, or maybe drink too much one night .... You get the picture...

I am not saying to do anything, but I am saying you might want to raise your alert level until this thing blows over. Once you start making enemies (even only something seemingly small like this), you need to remain on alert for most of the rest of your life.

Scot
 
I'm no lawyer, but I believe you have a claim against the city/county. Letting him bond out without ID constitutes tortious interference in your civil suit against him. If the releasing judge did not follow the law, in theory you should be compensated.

You have (had?) just claims against the tresspasser - extreme emotional distress, rent due for his use of your stand, etc. It was the job of the police to obtain and provide to you upon request valid information for you to pursue legal action.

I'd recommend at least filing liens against the firearms. It might take years and years, but most states provide that the unclaimed property eventually goes to the lien holder. Since nobody will contest your lien, you should get his guns in 2016 or 2019.
 
JWarren,

Seems to me you made reasonable decisions under stressful circumstances. You basically made a citizen's arrest.

Your choice to move to cover after becoming aware someone was targeting you seems like the best of your alternatives.

Your choice to take control of the situation by making the trespasser move out of his concealment in your deer blind also seems like the best of the alternatives presented.

Your actions systematically defused the threats as you perceived them. These decisions had to be made quickly and under stress. You knew that you had to deal with the situation alone and that help was a long time off. I was an auxiliary deputy with the Pearl River Sheriff's department in Mississippi (811 sq mi) over a decade ago. I know that with only two deputies on patrol it takes a long time to get to places we were dispatched.

You have my admiration.
 
i think you handled this exactly how i would hope that i would handle a smiliar situation...very good job sir

Your alive, hes alive, no one gets sued and you learned from this experience



i think this is also an example of why whenever venturing into the wilderness with a heavy scoped rifle, to also bring a backup...just in case you have to order someone off your deer stand!
 
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