Appropriate Level of Force

[DMK]

I just took my CCL class, sent off all the paperwork and now have some time to contemplate how to best equip myself physically and mentally. One of the things that bothers me is determining how to best apply an appropriate level of force in response to a threat.

Say for example somebody appearing to be a real threat your life started to approach you. No weapon is apparent (yet!), but they have open hostility and aggression towards you.

I hope to use a Surefire light and OC before the attacker got close enough for physical contact, but of course, those methods may not prevent it. My biggest concern in such a situation, would be that the attacker might get control of my weapon. In a contact situation, I now have to worry about him drawing it and using it against me.

Comments?

** Edited after some responses to remove the specific scenario because it was distracting to the question. **

 

[TheEgg]

A gentleman gets boxed in by an apparently unarmed larger guy who physically and violently assaults him. The video describes this scenario as a situation where drawing a weapon is not allowed by law because he is not armed with a weapon

OK, maybe the laws in your state say this, but if so, they are idiotic. In most places the key is not the weapon or the lack thereof but the legitimate belief in the mind of the victim that he/she is in danger of death or severe physical injury. Factors which play into the "legitimate" judgement include ability of the attacker, size/strength disparity, opportunity, etc.

As long as you are in fear of death or severe physcial injury, and the fear is legitimate (ie. you have not mistaken the circumstances -- and in this case I don't see how you could), in most place you CAN use your weapon to defend yourself.

Note -- checked the FBI UCR to find out how many people are killed each year by hands, feet, etc -- no weapons -- for year 2001, 1,071 people.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

Unlike LEOs, CCW holders are not required to meet force with equal force. The requirement is if you believe you are in imminent danger of death or great bodily injury. If you are trapped and someone is banging you head on the pavement, the use of deadly force is justified. A BG's lack of having a physical weapon does not mean he cannot kill you with his bare hands nor does it mean you can't shoot him.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

I'm not sure what the law is exactly in NC. But the general rule I've always heard is that if you have a reasonable fear of immediate death or serious bodily injury you are justified in using your weapon. Being attacked by someone much larger then you definitely fits the criteria for reasonable, immediate, and serious bodily injury. Respectfully, is it possible that you misunderstood the class or the video was mistaken? I wouldn't think that the laws of NC are _that_ ridiculous...

 

[DMK]

OK, first of all I appreciate the comments. But please let's get not get off track on critiquing the specifics of the scenario that was shown in the NC CCL class video. It is a terrible video made in 1995 by the NC Justice academy. I think everybody in the class disagreed with at least one part of it, including the instructors.

I edited my post to remove that part.

What I'm looking for is comments on using an appropriate level of force against an attacker appearing to be unarmed. Of course, appearences may be decieving.

I read a thread I dug up here with a search, where a forum member stated that private citizens have no attachment to the attacker like Police may have. That in a threatening situation, breaking contact and getting out of the area as quickly as possible may be one of the better plans of action. I thought that made a lot of sense. Although seemingly an obvious plan, it seems to me that displaying a weapon and especially using it, may indeed complicate plans of evasion and escape.

 

[sanchezero]

OC is awesome!!!

 

[Sludge]

Well Dave, I also had to sit through that same video. I agree with your first post that you dont want the guy getting his hands on you. Weapons retention has also been in my thoughts alot. I have been looking into less than lethal responses lately. I think you need to make that less than lethal response as much a part of your carry as you do your firearm. I carry a pointed kubaton on my key ring. When walking to my car in a less than perfect environment, or up to my door at night, it is in my hand ready to use.

I also think that OC is a good less than lethal response. However, I dont view the surefire light as a weapon. I see it as a time buyer, a weapon of surprise, a tool to change the momentum of an attack and give you a second or two. There are some other weapons that can be carried such as a cain that are ignored in public that may fit your carry in certain situations. I havent done so yet, but I am looking into some training in hand to hand to get my comfort level up in this reguard.

As far as getting out of the area. If you are still under a threat leave if ya can. If you use your weapon and neutralize the threat. Then there is no reason left to flee. Call the cops and sort the situation out.

Chris

 

[DMK]

However, I dont view the surefire light as a weapon. I see it as a time buyer, a weapon of surprise, a tool to change the momentum of an attack and give you a second or two.

I certainly agree. I would use a light as distraction in combination with OC, or a weapon, and evasion, preferably laterally.

I like the kubaton idea. I might have to get one as another available option. Thanks for the pics.

It's my understanding that a handfull of keys can be used as a close in weapon as well by holding the keys in your fist so that they stick out between your fingers, then punching and slashing with your hand. An ex-GF told me this, she said she used it once and it was effective.

Still, I'd like to avoid close contact completely if at all possible.

 

[sanchezero]

However, I dont view the surefire light as a weapon. I see it as a time buyer, a weapon of surprise, a tool to change the momentum of an attack and give you a second or two.

I've thought about that frequently. I'm still undecided. From the dictionary...

1.An instrument of attack or defense in combat, as a gun, missile, or sword.
2.Zoology. A part or organ, such as a claw or stinger, used by an animal in attack or defense.
3.A means used to defend against or defeat another: Logic was her weapon.

Anyway, I think I'm comfortable using the word weapon to extend to bright light. I've certainly used it on a few occasions to keep people I didn't want near me at bay.

I think it's definitely LOOOW on the force continuum. You certainly wouldn't use just a light on someone really close or aggressive and expect it to be effective.

Also, expect plenty of verbal abuse when you use white light and be prepared for a more violent reaction. My experience with light has definitely been positive, but I'm not so naive as to believe it to be a weapon as listed in #1 above.

 

[WT]

Fear alone is NOT sufficient reason to use deadly force.

A simple punch in the nose is NOT sufficient reason to use deadly force.

You are not clear on the subject. Go see an attorney and have him explain the laws of self defense to you.

 

[Soap]

IMHO you have to deal with the same level of force. The good guy can't escalate the level. So in this situation, the level of force is one of simple aggression. Therefore one should be aggressive back. I would probably yell at them to "STOP MOVING NOW!" while I bring my strong hand towards my gun. If they produce a weapon that could kill me, I draw and yell "STOP!" again (if I have time). If they do not produce any weapon, I will probably not draw and take my chances in the fight.

It is sad but true that disparate levels of force can land a good guy in jail.

 

[DMK]

Fear alone is NOT sufficient reason to use deadly force.

A simple punch in the nose is NOT sufficient reason to use deadly force.

WT, perhaps I'm not being clear. I named the thread "Appropriate Level of Force". I am not talking about using a deadly weapon as a primary means of dissuasion. In fact, I'm trying to consider alternatives so that I'm not backed into my firearm being my only means of defense.

In other words, it appears to me that by by making the decision to carry a firearm, you now must be prepared to also defend it, as crazy as that sounds.

It is sad but true that disparate levels of force can land a good guy in jail.

Daniel, very true. We have to play by rules, where they do not.

 

[Paul Gomez]

A couple of points;

First, the surefire makes a wonderful kubaton/fistload. Flash and Smash, as it were.

Second, if you have a bunch of keys sticking out of your fingers and you punch someone with them, you will probably do as much damage to yourself as to the bad guy. If all you have in hand is a set of keys, take one key and hold it so that it is protruding out between your thumb and index finger by about 1/4 inch. Slash, tear and gouge with it as though it were a small, dull, flimsy knife, because that's what it is.

 

[DMK]

Thanks for the advise Paul. I think I'll leave the key thing for an absolute last ditch effort.

 

[C.R.Sam]

First choice...
Defuse and/or depart.

Second choice, STOP the attack.

Circumstance and laws of the location will determine legality of means used to STOP.

Sam

 

[DMK]

Circumstance and laws of the location will determine legality of means used to STOP.

That is a good point. CCL recipricity with other states is something new for us in NC. It does seem that interstate traveling could raise some real problems concerning the appropriate level of force in response to attack depending on what state the attack took place in.

 

[Sludge]

well, that all goes back to doing your homework. Before I go out of state I always check Packing.org or something to see what the state laws are in the places I intend to visit. Sometimes I actually call the State Highway Patrol offices in the states I intend to visit. Gotta keep this stuff in mind.

BTW, DMK where in western NC do ya live?

 

[DMK]

Sludge, good advice. I refer to packing.org often. It's also agood place to find reference to the states' own legislation websites.

BTW, I live in Franklin which is about 60 or 70 miles west of Asheville.

 

[Andrew Rothman]

IMHO you have to deal with the same level of force. The good guy can't escalate the level.

Nope. The point is not to give the BG a sporting chance. The point is to survive and prevail in the encounter using the minimum necessary force.

Unlike LEOs, CCW holders are not required to meet force with equal force.

That's not correct. LEOs are taught to use "one plus one," or one level of force higher than the BG. So...

BG: Verbal abuse
LEO: Control moves

BG: Bare handed resistance
LEO: Nightstick, irritant spray

BG: Baseball bat, knife
LEO: Gun

See this: http://www.violenceprediction.com/pdf/chap13.pdf

Keep in mind that if there are two or three of them, unarmed, the force disparity (more of them than of you) may justify the use of lethal force.

Laws certainly vary wildly, but in general, escape is your first choice. Don't defend your honor, your wallet or your car with a gun. DO defend your life and the lives of others.


Matt

 

[zahc]

I hope to use a Surefire light and OC before the attacker got close enough for physical contact

Don't forget one option-RUN.

 

[DMK]

Don't forget one option-RUN.

Yes. Blind with light, OC in face, and run Forest! Run!

 

[Bob F.]

Sometimes your attitude will be the deciding factor, sometimes. I'm 6'2", 215 LBS (don't look that heavy) and was a field paramedic for several years. Often an authoratative (spell check?) attitude saved my as...aaahhh, bacon! Actually, if I had a bad patient, I didn't have time for some jerk, usually drunk, and would have put 'em down fast. But I'm old school and was on good terms with local LEO. Ah, the times they are achanging, damnit!!

 

[c_yeager]

I think that in most cases when in a potentially life threating situation one should first try to evade (run away) and, failing that respond with whatever level of force is required to stop the threat. That does not mean using EQUAL force. A stalemate will not work to your advantage and being that (i assume) the "good guy" didnt initiate the encounter they dont have an obligation to the safety of their attacker.

 

[Hkmp5sd]

IMO, it is unwise for a normal (ie not trained in hand-to-hand fighting) to get into a physical conflict with a BG using a baton or other type weapon. If someone is threatening you, and you (or any other reasonably intelligent person) believe the BG has the ability to carry out that threat, and you cannot escape, draw your weapon and keep the BG at a safe distance. According to most statistics, merely brandishing the weapon in this manner results in the BG leaving the scene about 95% of the time with no shots fired and no one bleeding.

If you do draw your weapon in this manner, call the police and report it. It would be most unfortunate if the BG calls the cops and says you were threatening him.

 

[c_yeager]

I agree with HK, it takes a certain amount of training to use a less than lethal device properly. And in a lot of cases having a "club/baton" in your hand makes you look like the badguy to the cops.