April 19th... Official AR/M16 Bashing Day?

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Freddymac

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It wasn't on any calendar that I could find, but to day seems to be AR bashing day. I've seen more AR bashing to day than I ever seen here before. To set the record straight a lot of the "problems" with the AR/M16, although they were fixed decades ago, resulted from problems (real or otherwise) incurred from the first batch that were released during the Vietnam War. Keep in mind that the AR was designed to fight in Europe, where we had been fighting for generations. If it was first issued during a conflict in Europe, many people would be singing a different tune.
Many of these problems were not at all problems with the rifle or the shooter, but with the instructors. When first introduced, troops were told that the rifle did not need cleaning (strange but true). Then, when cleaning kits were finally issued, they were the wrong ones.
People always argue that the AR doesn't have the "knockdown" power of the AK. That is true, but the .223 does much more damage in the human body. I know that I probably just started a s#*^% storm with that comment, but it is true. The AK produces a larger temporary wound cavity, but the .223 produces a much more devastating permit cavity. Also the .223 will typically breaks apart and all of those jagged little fragments fly around inside, producing more damage than a round that stays intact.
People say that the AK will shoot through oak trees. Once again, this may be true, but the AR will penetrate thicker steel plating in its military form (SS 109).
I'm not bashing the AK at all here. I'm just trying to disprove a few myths and clear up some common misconceptions.

Thanks for letting me vent.

Fred
 
I'll have to agree about the wound canals of the 5.56 vs the 7.62x39.
The 5.56 looked a LOT rougher...
The perminent cavity was a lot larger, rougher, and had a few other cavities springing off due to the fragments.
There's also the tumbling factor.
 
Hmmm. . .

Keep in mind that the AR was designed to fight in Europe
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Nope, it was originally designed as a lightweight survival rifle for pilots. It was then beefed up to serve as a security weapon for USAF bases. It was then ramped up even further to meet McNamara's demand for a "one-size-fits-all" service rifle for the US armed forces.

Many of these problems were not at all problems with the rifle or the shooter, but with the instructors.
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On the contrary - the weapon, as introduced, had all sorts of problems. The powder was changed; the twist ratio was changed, IIRC; the barrel wasn't chrome-lined, as per standard US army specs; no cleaning kits were issued; magazines were poorly manufactured (loading a 20rd. mag to capacity tended to cause jams); and in many cases, little or no instruction was provided (weapons were often exchanged in the field, rather than at training establishments).

the .223 does much more damage in the human body.
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Only if the target is hit at a range at which fragmentation and/or cavitation can take place. This is dependent on bullet velocity. With a short, 16" barreled weapon, the effective range for both factors is allegedly 150 yards or less - probably, in practice, 100 yards or so. It extends to 150-200 yards with a 20" barrel. Also, the right ammo is needed for fragmentation. The original 55gr. ball round did so fairly well. The 62gr. SS109 projectile does much more poorly.

I've been shot twice with an AK, and I can tell you from bitter, painful, profane experience that the 122gr. .30-caliber slug doesn't need to cavitate or fragment to induce a disabling wound. Ballistic gelatin may "prove" the faster .223 round to be "better", but I for one won't be volunteering anytime soon to be the human test-bed! :eek:

People say that the AK will shoot through oak trees. Once again, this may be true, but the AR will penetrate thicker steel plating in its military form (SS 109).
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Yes, the AR will out-penetrate the AK on steel plate. Next time I'm facing an opponent behind steel plate (mild steel, that is - not armor-plate), I'll keep that in mind. However, in my civilian lifestyle, this isn't terribly likely, so I shall continue to place my trust in 7.62x39mm., thank you very much . . .

I admit to a strong bias against the AR15/M16 series, based on very bad experiences with the A1/A2 generation of these weapons. I accept that the A3/A4 variants are much improved, and I know that many experienced gentlemen with teeth and claws are great fans of the weapons. However, based on my less-than-stellar experiences, I'll continue to reach for an AK or derivative weapon (Galil, Valmet, etc.) if the proverbial brown substance ever hits the rotatory air impeller.
 
+1 for the AKs. i,m not bashing the AR/M16 as i know they are increadibly accurate from 1st hand experience. shot all my life, but never hit targets at 300 yards consistantly with iron sights until i joined the service and qualified expert with an M16 (shot pretty fair with the M203 40mm as well). still i would reach for my AK if could have only one gun to face the EOTW. virtually indestuctable.
 
People say that the AK will shoot through oak trees. Once again, this may be true, but the AR will penetrate thicker steel plating in its military form (SS 109).
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Of course, we didn't have SS109 in Vietnam -- it was a decade or two in the future. Standard issue was 55-grain M193.

Cleaning kit? What's that?
 
I spent 20+ years being familiar with the M16 and subsequent models.

Now that I've retired from the military, my go-to gun is an AK. My two AR-15s sit in the safe, and are basically fun guns or tools for prairie dogs. They're also subtle reminders to me of my military service, just like the M9 Beretta they issued to me as they took away my beloved 1911 at the same time.

The left-handed kid on the line next to me in Basic Training took an out-of-battery fire to his corneas back in April of 1986. I remember that vividly. 5+ weeks into his military career, and he was done. Every time I qualified with a Colt M16 each year I remembered that, and politely did the course of fire, even though the training guns I got each time were badly in need of rebuilding.

I even bought a pre-ban Colt AR to force myself to become acquainted with the system, and practiced with it to earn the expert marksmanship medal come qualification time. I noted once that my Bulgarian SLR-95 was assembled to a higher fit and finish than the worn out Colts they used for qualifications at my base. I kid you not, one of the Colts said AR-15 on it, no brass deflector, no forward assist, select fire. The front sight wobbled loosely in the housing, victim of many years' worth of bullet nose elevation adjustment.

Luckily, the issue rifles for the real-world stuff were FN-manufactured M16A2 versions, and I made sure mine was immaculate, or as immaculate as one could get in a tent city in the desert. A royal pain in the tush to keep it clean, but I wasn't going to be the one who let that talcum powder sand stuff jam his weapon when Achmed had his trusty Kalashnikov pointed my way.

The M16 does, and will work, if you maintain it like you're supposed to do. Is it the be-all, end-all of service rifles? Nope. But it's what we have in our inventory, the logistics chain for both the gun and ammo is well-established, and any successor to the rifle won't be coming around the bend for a long time. How's that saying go? "When handed lemons, make lemonade."
 
I'm an AR kinda guy...

Ballistic tests? Thats all well and good. But the AR has a vast array of ordnance that it can put out. .50 Beowulf, .499 LWR, .458 SOCOM, .308 Winchester, 6.8 Remington SPC, .243 Winchester, 9mm, and 5.56. So if its about ballistics, there's an AR upper that will stomp the crap out of any AK in any ballistic test any day of the week.

Reliability can be improved, as Patriot Ordnance Factory and H&K have shown us with their gas-piston blowback systems.

It can be an standard infantry rifle, Squad Automatic Weapon, Sniper rifle, pistol, SMG. There's no role it can't perform, no operator it can't readily fit.

And there are so many parts out there you can turn an old worn-out A2 into a match-grade service rifle by paging through Brownell's for a couple minutes.

Its not as if the military is only tolerating the M-16 at this point. Its earned the time that it has served because it is constantly being improved and updated.

But the AK is cheap.
 
April 19th is the day the Minutemen let the gun confiscators have it in Lexington and Concord.

It is also the day the JBT government agencies decided to storm and burn the Davidian Ranch at Waco. I believe this day was selected intentionally. I do not have any doubt in my mind that it was not a coincidence. It is the ultimate insulting irony.

It's also the day that Timothy McVeigh got revenge for Ruby Ridge, Waco and the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban by blowing up the BATFE offices in Oklahoma City.


(NOTES for those to avoid bias)

1] It was a Church/Ranch. Not a "compound". By calling it a compound is to imply that they were a party to the conflict, rather than victims. Remember, our government will call your basement a bunker, your gun collection an arsenal, your balcony a snipers nest, your surplus rusted 50cal ammo can filled with Wal-Mart 9mm and a couple boxes of .223 an ammunition cache, 2-way radios will be communications, lawn fertilizer will be labeled bomb making ingredients, and your motion sensing front lights an early warning system....

2] It wasn't the "Federal Building" or "Murrah Building" that the government-media says OVER and over ad nauseam to divert attention to what really happened. "Federal" and "Murrah" building sound so innocent. It wasn't attacked because it was a Federal building, or because it's name was Alfred P. Murrah Building. It was bombed because the BATFE was there. The proper way to address the issue, would be to mention the fact that the BATFE offices were the target. I'm sure anyone would agree that this is a pertinent piece of information when telling a story.

3] Throughout my life, everytime I've heard the story told, mentioned, or described, the mission of the Redcoats is always conveniently ignored or left out. We are always left with a simple story of patriots fighting the big bad British because the patriots just wanted "freedom"..Nice and sweet, without specifics.

Just like using the term "federal building" to describe the target, avoiding the purpose of the aggression or the target, or the motive of the freedom fighter is a deliberate effort to draw away attention, discredit, deflate, and ultimately undermine the facts.

The British were ordered to confiscate GUNS. The American people, who we and every other modern American agrees on and sees as patriots today, shot and killed the agents of their government/authorities to prevent them from confiscating their firearms.


Few Americans (due to government-run education camps) even know that there ever was armed conflict at Lexington, let alone why the farmers took up arms against an aggressor. The government-run schools have done such an excellent job at their intended mission, that they've finally achieved producing an entire generation of functional illiterates. A person who cannot read, cannot learn or understand ideas or history.


Think of how dangerous it would be (to the government's effort to increase their power) if each and every American actually understood that the patriots we hail as heroes and founders of this nation used deadly force to prevent a firearm confiscation. It just make people think HMMM. If our government-media would refer to the Oklahoma bombing target as the BATFE offices, people would then think "why did he go for them, and not the IRS or some other feds?", instead of just blanketly seeing it as a "crazed act of terrorism".


April 19th is already Patriot's day. What a fitting date with an amazing history of events failling on it. I don't think that bashing the AR-15 is appropriate, reserve that for Stoner's birthday, or the day the M16 was approved as the US Military's primary service rifle.
 
Speaking of anniversaries, tommorow is the date of the failed Columbine School attack. Another terrible tragedy leading to even more hatred against guns. We are in a sad stretch of days when it comes to remembering past events. Only the start of the Revolution is a positive so far.
 
When I was in the Army I despised the M16A1.
I was a Small Arms Repairman and seemed to spend a huge amount of time fixing problems that should not have occurred to the weapon but did.

No that I live in much less stressful times I have learned to appreciate the rifle.
It only took twenty seven years to get that far,,,,,
 
It was the day before

I took my newly purchased AR out for it's inagural test drive. I like it. Now if only I could remember how to shoot accurately from an unsupported standing position. Bench resting it'll shoot 3" 20 round groups with iron sights and me at 100 yards. I'm pleased.
 
I've only had a problem with 1 of the 7 M16A2's I've been issued, never had a problem with my M16A4 and neither of my 2 AR-15's have given me any problems, except for that one magazine with the bent feed lips, little gerber action fixed that problem.

Maybe it's the fact that I grew up with an AR-15 and know that you want to keep the bolt lubed but the carrier just slightly damp, and always keep that ejection port cover closed, down load your mags when they aren't being used, or rotate your mags when they are being used. There's nothing an AR can't do, and I enjoy hearing the talk about O311's getting the 6.8mm - I've seen experimental heavy barreled and Beta maged M16/M41's being pondered for replacement to the saw and I've seen M4's with breaching shot guns attached much like the M203 is.

The only AK that has ever impressed me is the Bulgarian AK, but I wouldn't trade the 100,000 AK's I seen before that one for any M16

As for that Berreta 9mm, most of the military issued ones are crap. I much prefer the old 1911 over it any day in a combat situation, as for my personaly owned 92FS, I like it for it's 15 round magazine, CrimsonTrace Grips and the ability to purchase 20 & 30 round mags. If I need to leave the house with a pistol it's my 92FS, what I reach for when 'bumps in the night' is my Kimber loaded with Corban +p 230 hollow points.

Opinions differ, but the AR/M16 has proven it self in my point of view. Maybe its the fact that I've put down 6 men in solo shooting and shot and killed at well over 100 in fireteam / squad shoot outs. I've trusted the M16 with my life, and prefer it over the average AK. (I was in Fallujah April 2004)
 
It wasn't on any calendar that I could find, but to day seems to be AR bashing day. I've seen more AR bashing to day than I ever seen here before.
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That's because the AR is a soulless little poddle shooter despised by all real men. I think that about covers it. :neener:

"To day" should be one word: today.
 
never been shot at or shot back, that said, about every single AR I have ever shot (about 6 or 7) has had some piddly problem. Every AK I have ever shot ran perfectly. For example, a buddy and I were out years ago with a bag of the nastist relaods you would ever want to see-dirty, corroded dented crap. His AR would jam on every shot. My Valmet happily burped it way thru it all. Recently I got another AR for some unknown reason, a like new gun, factory made. First range session, could harly get a loaded mag into the gun with the bolt closed, and it wouldn't go into battery when cocked.Cocked it again and released the bolt- OK. Oh yeah, this is one of those guns where you are supposed to put 28 rounds in a 30 round magazine . Fired one shot. Fired the second shot.(or tried to) not even a click, the trigger did'nt reset. Cocked it. Trigger did'nt reset. Took it apart and fussed about. Ok for the rest of the mag. Dropped the mag.(or tried to) Oops. mag will not come out of the gun. With the mag catch pulled out and turned to completely disengage it, it took both hands to get the mag out. This is the sort of thing that happens every time I pick up an AR. I think I am jinxed. I also think the "not invented here"syndrome is the main reson we do not use AK's in our military.
 
What the devil is that, Dog Cube?
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F-111 Aardvark. Great fighter-bomber with a teriffic terrain following system, but too damn heavy for carrier landings.

For some of us April 19 of recent history means "tragic events", we wonder if when we wake up if something has, or will that day.
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Yeah, I turned 50 that day. That was tragic.:uhoh:
 
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