AR-10s do they work or not?

[trbon8r]

I've always been interested in owning an AR-10, but have mostly been shooting M14s and Garands because of the combination of reliability and accuracy of the basic John C. Garand design, which I find to be very appealing.

My frame of reference on the AR-10 admittedly goes back about five years and seeing these rifles at the local range. They were jamming a lot, ejecting magazines under recoil, short stroking, and suffering other assorted maladies.

Right now I'm cash poor, but am considering buying a stripped Eagle Arms AR-10 receiver to put away for a future build in case the laws don't go in our favor.

Can these rifles be made to work reliably like an M14, or is their sole claim to fame accuracy? I'm not interested in a scoped AR-10 version with a bipod that eats a single 20 round mag during a range session and therefore is proclaimed "reliable". Instead I'm talking about a rifle that can gobble 200 rounds a day weekend after weekend, being cleaned every 2nd or 3rd range session and still produce great accuracy and reliability like my M14s do.

 

[rbernie]

My Eagle/Armalite has been 100% perfect and flawless; not a single FTF, FTE, or any other malf thru several thousand rounds.

I'm getting ready to build two more.

 

[Zak Smith]

I have seen a large number of 308 "AR" pattern rifles in 3-Gun and practical rifle matches since 2003 (and I owned an AR-10 for a couple years). A large fraction of them have had problems. My impression is that they are harder to get running reliably than AR-15's, but that it can be done.

 

[CanonNinja]

just ran another mag through my DPMS 24" LR-308 this weekend, and I'm more than impressed with it. Not a hiccup, and shot Portugese and Argentine surplus at MOA or better (I wasn't really trying all out to group)

 

[grizz]

My DPMS LR-308 (AR-10 clone) has been flawless in about 200 rounds. I only use Black Hills match ammo and steel DPMS 20 rd mags. My brother's Armalite AR-10 (T) has had FTE problems with the same ammo, but I'm fairly certain that the crappy 10 round converted M-14 mags it came with are the problem. Armalite has recently developed new 20 round mags that are supposed to be much better.

I've read that AR-10 parts are not nearly as interchangeable as AR-15 parts... To the point that an Armalite Upper might not work with a DPMS lower, etc. Something to consider if you're planning on building an AR-10 in the future.

There was a group buy on DPMS AR-10s here on THR a while back. You might try setting up a poll to see if those High Roaders that bought one have found them to be reliable. I sure like mine, but I'm admittedly biased.

The Armalite is nice as well, but IMO it is not worth $800 more than the DPMS. The military just awarded Knight Armament a new sniper rifle contract, but Knight AR-10s are even 2-3 times more expensive than the Armalite.

 

[NeverAgain26]

My Armalite AR-10 had a few failures to feed when I first started shooting it, but since then I have had zero problems. Accurate and pleasant to shoot.

Saul Levy

 

[Dionysusigma]

Stay away from any "AR-10" that takes FAL magazines, and you'll be fine.

Whoever came up with that idea didn't take into account how differently FALs feed than ARs... best way to explain would be that FALs feed like a double-stack pistol magazine (round pushes to the center, then out) whereas ARs, AKs, M14s, etc. feed from alternating sides.

Since the AR design has a barrel lug at 6:00, a center-feeding magazine wouldn't work unless you ground that lug off, which they did. It's like tuning a 1911 to match-grade tolerances and expecting it to be as reliable as a Glock. It wasn't designed for it, and so problems began to abound.

However, if you go with an AR-10 that takes SR-25 or (more commonly) modified M14 magazines, which feed from both the right and left, you'll be fine. Keep in mind that this was the original configuration of the design, in its original caliber. 'Course, the charging handle was different back then, too...


(Click for a bigger picture)
from http://www.armalite.com/sales/catalog/rifles/ar10b.htm

 

[TIMC]

A hunting buddy of mine and I each have Bushmaster AR-10's. I don't keep accurate counts on ammo fired through any of my guns but I am sure there have been at least 2000 rounds through each of them and I have yet to see any kind of a problem. Of course they are kept clean and maintained, if that is not done any semi-auto will give you problems. In the accuracy department I have taken game with mine at ranges well over 200 yards.

Stay away from any "AR-10" that takes FAL magazines, and you'll be fine.

Whoever came up with that idea didn't take into account how differently FALs feed than ARs... best way to explain would be that FALs feed like a double-stack pistol magazine (round pushes to the center, then out) whereas ARs, AKs, M14s, etc. feed from alternating sides.

Since the AR design has a barrel lug at 6:00, a center-feeding magazine wouldn't work unless you ground that lug off, which they did. It's like tuning a 1911 to match-grade tolerances and expecting it to be as reliable as a Glock. It wasn't designed for it, and so problems began to abound.

That statement is pure garbage! My bushmaster takes FAL mags and runs ammo through them with 0 problems.

 

[Dionysusigma]

Give it time.

 

[TIMC]

How much time? 10,000 20,000 30,000 rounds?

 

[trainwreck100]

I'm pretty unfamiliar with the AR-10, and have to ask why one would want one instead of a .308 AR-15? What are the differences in the two?

Greg

 

[Zak Smith]

The AR-10 is essentially an AR-15 scaled up to fit the 308 cartridge.

 

[Dionysusigma]

Thought the AR-15 was a scaled-down version of the AR-10...

Based on what they saw in the AR-10, however, other Army officials asked ArmaLite to develop a smaller version of the AR-10 in 1956. The ensuing rifle was called the AR-15. Like the AR-10, it was a developmental model.

From here: http://www.armalite.com/library/history/history.htm#1

As far as the Bushmaster debacle goes, two words: bolt failures.

The FAL's center-feeding is not a problem for a rear-locking bolt setup. With a normal AR barrel extension, there is a lug at 6 o'clock that the ammo has to feed around, which was deleted in order to use the FAL mag.

Unfortunately, this further weakens the bolt/barrel interface, as it's already missing a lug (on the bolt) at 3 o'clock where the extractor is. Deleting a second lug, regardless of whether it's on the bolt or barrel, puts a lot more stress on the remaining lugs, and it appears that bolts have broken as a result.

'Course, even Century sometimes puts out a flawless rifle...

 

[Zak Smith]

Dionysusigma,

You're right of course.

-z

 

[loki.fish]

I bought a used Armalite AR-10T a couple months ago. So long as I don't use the 10 round M-14 modified mag in it, it runs fine. Once I put that in there....the problems start. The new 20 rounders that Armalite made are $45-$50 each. If you get a DPMS AR-10 or the SR-25, those magazines will interchange. But for Armalite, you have to use the new 20 rounders or modified M-14 mags, nothing else will work.

 

[Neo-Luddite]

The FAL mag AR-10's

(in reference to Dionysusigma's post)

I had heard of this but had never known about the issue. It seemed like a bolt-of-lightening sollution to the expensive hi cap mag problem that existed prior to the AWB sunset for the AR-10's. I'm sorry to hear that it doesn't work as planned.

The guy that came up with the concept (I think he was awarded a patent actually) was largely working within that political framework some years back. There was going to be a possible market also for FAL-using countries that had plenty of mags and ammo also who wanted to upgrade. I 've never tried to use one, so I honestly appreciate your analysis.

Luckily, at least for now, purpose built hi caps are out there. Hope they're cranking at the stamping plant!

 

[Bergeron]

I understand that Rock River Arms bought the Bushmaster/FAL magazine fed AR-10 design and modified it. Does anyone know what, if anything, they've done to get around the problems associated with using the FAL magazine?

 

[CDignition]

I have a GAP AR10, it is very fine...The only thing im going to do to it is install a Tubb CS Flat wound Buffer spring.. heres some pics

Optics are USO SN3

 

[Dionysusigma]

CDignition, love your sig line.

Bergeron: I understand that Rock River Arms bought the Bushmaster/FAL magazine fed AR-10 design and modified it. Does anyone know what, if anything, they've done to get around the problems associated with using the FAL magazine?

In all reality, the only way I can see that the FAL-mag-utilizing-design can be improved is really a simple one--rotate the entire lug system 45 degrees.

That way, you get more lugs (stronger lockup spread out over a larger area, something that IIRC was a major problem with designs like the Krag-Jorgensen with only one lug ) making contact, and a make-shift ramp at 6:00 that can be "hollowed out" some to form a feed ramp. Also, you get an entire lug stripping the round out of the magazine, much like... well, lots of designs (like all autoloading pistols, for example).

Not like parts compatability would be much of an issue, anyway. AR-10 bolts won't work in a regular 15, nor are the lowers, uppers, or barrels interchangeable, which are all that would really be affected by the change.

If Rock River did this, then it'd solve a lot of problems, I think.

 

[Bergeron]

I'm really hoping that Rock River did as you suggested. They seem to produce high quality products, and it would be shame to damage their rep with a flawed design.

I had handled an ealier Bushmaster .308 AR-10, and I was favorably impressed with the rifle until I found about the lug problem and how it was associated with the FAL magazine.

 

[Bob R]

Well, mine works just fine. Armalite AR10A4, I have Armalite mags and converted M14 mags, they work fine also.

bob

 

[1911JMB]

They are good guns, but its important to keep them clean, they are picky about ammo, and it may take a lot of TLC to get one running right. I prefer my FAL for its unfailing reliability, but quick barrel changes, next to no recoil, 100% reliability when clean and lubricated and superb accuracy are nice.

In this political climate, if you want one, now would be the time.

 

[Slamfire]

The basic issue that we have seen with these AR actions in 308 is a lack of development. It costs money to work out the "bugs". All of these designs have had ammunition, magazine, failure to extract, failure to feed issues. The original AR 15 failed in the field when it was first issued due to a lack of a military sponsered test program. Millions of dollars later, plies of dead GI's later, the bugs have been worked out. Now these later 308 designs have had the same sort of problems, and the first generation issue rifles had problems.

It is my opinion that Armalite has spent the most money correcting issues related to their rifle and based on time and money, it is probably the most mature 308 AR on the market. And I will bet that it is still not as reliable as a M1a or FN/FAL. Assuming good parts and all.

 

[Oberfeld]

Slamfire: And I will bet that it is still not as reliable as a M1a or FN/FAL. Assuming good parts and all.


You're exactly right. I had an AR-10 and it was very picky with ammo. Now I changed back to M1A. Here is my new toy. Will be here next week.

 

[de]

Back in the seventies when I was younger, and could walk all day, I worked narcotics on the Ok Tx border in the Red River bottoms, locating and setting up survailance on marijhuana patches. A police chief ask to come along with me on a one time trip although he knew I worked alone. He wanted to see what it was like, so me knowing he had his business together I agreed. He carried an original select-fire AR10, while I always carried my Colt SP1 Car15 shorty. At the end of the op, he asked me if I had ever fired an AR10, and handed it to me. 3 round bursts were usable, I'm not fat, but I'm a big guy,and on a five round burst that rifle climbed like a monkey. For my line of work at the time, I would not have traded rifles with him, because of the weight, and duration of some of the ops. But still, all and all, it was a hellava rifle.