For a time the Colt was the benchmark for the AR-15 platform. In doing research it appears that their are a number of companies in the game. Are they all good and is it a Ford vs. Chevy thing? I am looking at the RRA, Bushmaster, S&W , LMT & Colt...or others if you have a comment. What is the deal with each, pros & cons? I am looking for a M-4 type rifle. Thanks!
AR-15 purchase Question - Need Help
- Thread starter TexasEd
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My opinion, anyway:
Top tier manufacturers are Colt, LMT, FN, Noveske. BCM also makes top-tier uppers and bolt carrier groups, but not whole rifles (as in, they don't make whole rifles at all, not that their rifles suck
).
Mid tier is CMMG (mainly replace the extractor spring, stake the castle nut yourself with a prick punch, and you're good to go). CMMG will also build you a rifle to pretty much any specification you want, and they haven't hiked their prices since last summer ($1125 for a complete rifle, about $950 for lower + upper with BCG). But you'd be looking at a 6 to 12 month wait.
The rest are bottom rung, requiring more work and/or parts to get up to Colt quality and mil-spec accessory compatibility.
It's entirely possible to get one of the "bottom" ARs to near Colt level, just takes time and money. Like if I got an off-the-shelf Bushmaster, here's what I'd do:
Re-stake the gas key and upgrade the extractor with a BCM spring and insert (or replace the whole thing with an LMT BCG). Replace buffer with an H2 buffer (if a carbine). Replace the buffer tube with a mil-spec diameter one if using an aftermarket collapsible stock. Remove locktite from the castle nut if applicable (can't remember if BM locktites them), and stake properly with a prick punch. Replace the front sight with an F height post (or replace the entire gas block), if using a backup iron sight. Don't put in a registered lightning link or drop-in autosear, as the barrel steel isn't up to sustained full auto fire.
I think that's about it.
Top tier manufacturers are Colt, LMT, FN, Noveske. BCM also makes top-tier uppers and bolt carrier groups, but not whole rifles (as in, they don't make whole rifles at all, not that their rifles suck
).Mid tier is CMMG (mainly replace the extractor spring, stake the castle nut yourself with a prick punch, and you're good to go). CMMG will also build you a rifle to pretty much any specification you want, and they haven't hiked their prices since last summer ($1125 for a complete rifle, about $950 for lower + upper with BCG). But you'd be looking at a 6 to 12 month wait.
The rest are bottom rung, requiring more work and/or parts to get up to Colt quality and mil-spec accessory compatibility.
It's entirely possible to get one of the "bottom" ARs to near Colt level, just takes time and money. Like if I got an off-the-shelf Bushmaster, here's what I'd do:
Re-stake the gas key and upgrade the extractor with a BCM spring and insert (or replace the whole thing with an LMT BCG). Replace buffer with an H2 buffer (if a carbine). Replace the buffer tube with a mil-spec diameter one if using an aftermarket collapsible stock. Remove locktite from the castle nut if applicable (can't remember if BM locktites them), and stake properly with a prick punch. Replace the front sight with an F height post (or replace the entire gas block), if using a backup iron sight. Don't put in a registered lightning link or drop-in autosear, as the barrel steel isn't up to sustained full auto fire.
I think that's about it.
Uh, LMT, Noveske, Colt certainly make entire rifles. I'm sitting here holding an LMT Defender 2000. FN does, but it's .mil only. Uppers and BCG only for BCM.
For the same price or just a smidgen more than Bushmaster, you can have one of the higher level brands. S&W, Charles Daly, LMT, a much smaller brand or two...
If you are going to be adding a rail later anyway, one of the best deals going is the Daniel Defense rifle for $1600. It has an excellent rail and a BUIS, plus a Mappul MOE stock.
The biggest problem these days is availability. Before the election, you could have an LMT complete for a grand, although you might have had to wait a little.
If you are looking for a serious use carbine, or appreciate quality worksmanship, then all AR-15s are certainly not equal, nor is it a "Ford vs. Chevy" kind of deal.
Now, you are talking about Olympic, DPMS, and a few others, then, yeah, they are pretty much alike. You can, however, alleviate some issues by doing corrective work such as gas key staking, bolt replacement, chamber reaming, etc.
For the same price or just a smidgen more than Bushmaster, you can have one of the higher level brands. S&W, Charles Daly, LMT, a much smaller brand or two...
If you are going to be adding a rail later anyway, one of the best deals going is the Daniel Defense rifle for $1600. It has an excellent rail and a BUIS, plus a Mappul MOE stock.
The biggest problem these days is availability. Before the election, you could have an LMT complete for a grand, although you might have had to wait a little.
If you are looking for a serious use carbine, or appreciate quality worksmanship, then all AR-15s are certainly not equal, nor is it a "Ford vs. Chevy" kind of deal.
Now, you are talking about Olympic, DPMS, and a few others, then, yeah, they are pretty much alike. You can, however, alleviate some issues by doing corrective work such as gas key staking, bolt replacement, chamber reaming, etc.
CoRoMo
Member
Tex...
What would the intended purpose of your M4 be?
What kind/type of use would it see?
What would the intended purpose of your M4 be?
What kind/type of use would it see?
ARNETT44
Member
I am really a fan of the LMT's, and I have mixed up a few with LWRC upper on one and Noveske on another. I also can't complain about a couple of self built Stag lowers with LMT uppers. So if I was going to pick I would go with LMT. The Bushies are OK. Right now it would be ,who can I get one from before I die, more then which one.
Well Ryan, I will forward this information to the Les Bear shop that their rifles are bottom rung. These guys build one of the best! I also think that the lowers for those top teir manufacturers are made by some of the bottom rung makers are they not?
Texas, I built my own on DoubleStar parts. Stag, BushMaster, Armalite, and some others are not bottom tier rifles either. Unless you plan on going to war with your rifle any of these will last for years to come if maintained correctly.
trex1310
Member
Is Remington top, middle or bottom tier?
mudstud
Member
Here's a top tier AR.
http://www.ddm4.com/ddm4inaction.html
Snagged one of those yesterday! Now waiting on the 6920's to show!
http://www.ddm4.com/ddm4inaction.html
Snagged one of those yesterday! Now waiting on the 6920's to show!
Never heard of Les Baer ARs. I'd need to actually check one to see how good they are, or hear from someone that knows what to look for. Their 1911s are among the best, I know that, but... Colt's AR-15s are among the best, and their 1911s are the same MIM garbage that everyone else turns out, so I can't make any judgement from Baer 1911s.
In any case... well, if you don't care if your gas key shoots loose within a couple thousand rounds, if your extractor will slip right off the rim if your rifle gets hot and the case sticks, if the gun continues to function while dirty, if it's actually got a NATO spec chamber or if it just says that on the side, whether aftermarket accessories work with it, etc., you're more than welcome to buy rifles which do not conform to specifications. You pays your money, you makes your choice.
Remington, the jury's still out on them probably. I'd need to see one or hear about them from a credible source.
Probably should've linked to the chart to begin with.
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6642
Of the stuff on there, the gas key staking and extractor spring are the most important (but reasonably easy to fix).
In any case... well, if you don't care if your gas key shoots loose within a couple thousand rounds, if your extractor will slip right off the rim if your rifle gets hot and the case sticks, if the gun continues to function while dirty, if it's actually got a NATO spec chamber or if it just says that on the side, whether aftermarket accessories work with it, etc., you're more than welcome to buy rifles which do not conform to specifications. You pays your money, you makes your choice.
Remington, the jury's still out on them probably. I'd need to see one or hear about them from a credible source.
Probably should've linked to the chart to begin with.
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6642
Of the stuff on there, the gas key staking and extractor spring are the most important (but reasonably easy to fix).
mudstud
Member
Remington R-15 is a Bushmaster, and the R-25 is a DPMS. Because the whole kit and kaboodle is owned by Cerberus, who also owns Chrysler. Wonder what the repercussions of that will turn out to be? 
Actually, Les Baer Rifles are pretty much mediocre rifles at above top rung prices. They even put on the castle nut backwards
Les Baer and Wilson Combat should stick to what they do best- 1911 style pistols.
Oh, and companies like LMT make their own lowers and their own LPK.
Sorry, Ryan, I missed that period.
Remington sources their rifles from DPMS and/or Bushmaster (all brands are owned by Cerebrus, if I am not mistaken) so pretty much bottom tier, with BM being a little upwards on the ladder. Most would consider them middle tier.
Then you want to stick with Colt, Noveske, LMT, or Daniel Defense. Find whichever of these is in your price range and stick with it. You probably won't find a Noveske for a decent price, though. Daniel Defense stuff is in stock, and Colts are starting to become more available at reasonable prices. Dunno about the current pricing on LMT, but you may be able to find one at a decent price.
FlyinBryan
Member
they are owned by the same outfit, but they are not the same rifles.
i have the bushmaster m4 configuration w/16'' barrel and i love it. never hickup on brass ammo but tends to have problems with some wolf as you may find many threads about it. i bought it for cheaper than retail around here by buying the two receivers seperate.
That's what I figured.
I wasn't as annoyed as that may have sounded, sorry if you were offended.And they put the castle nut on backwards? Holy crap.
One thing I probably forgot to add, the lower is probably the least critical part of the build. The important things are the buffer (2 seconds to swap) should generally be an H or H2 (maybe even heavier for a 16" with an M4 gas system), and the castle nut staking, which is a 5 minute basement job.
The lowers themselves are... I think there are only 2 or 3 companies that forge them, and maybe 4 that machine them? Something like that. They're pretty much all good, aside from Vulcan/Hesse. If you're building your own, just pick the animal you like for the side, or go with what's cheap and/or available (by your own priorities there).
Some LPKs may have an SP-1 notch, but I don't think that's a big deal, especially if you get a BCG with an enclosed firing pin.
messerist
Member
I have a S&W MP 15. I think it is a well built rifle. I saw three at Cabelas last weekend and the price was close to what I paid for mine in Feb 2007. I have read on this forum that S&W has introduced a "piston operated" rifle but I can not confirm that. Good luck with your quest.
sgtdevildog
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I just picked up an LWRC in 6.8spc which seems very nice. Gas piston, 14.7PA, troy buis, barrett 30 rd mag, VLTOR EMOD stock, H2 buffer. Accuracy in limited testing was very good.
It did not sound to me that you are looking for the top end, be all end all of rifles from your post. You are getting the majority of your posts from people who are talking about Porsches when you were asking about Fords and Chevys. Bushmaster, RRA, DPMS and the others are very good rifles. Nothing wrong with them. I have a RRA and have NEVER had a problem with it. I've shot thousands of rounds through mine, many of those rapid fire till the barrel smoked. No problems. It was very reasonably priced (especially because I bought it 2 years ago) and always goes bang when I pull the trigger. If you are plinking occasionally and wanting it for home defense, you don't need to spend $2500 for a weapon. Get a Bushy, DPMS, S&W or a Rock River and be happy. If you are going to fight the zombies or something then by all means spend 2 or 3 times as much.
kwelz
Member
Les Baer is not top tier. They are Mid level at best. Hell they can't even assemble the things right.
Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
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Ha, ha, that made me laugh for some reason - yes, that is correct and perhaps the understatement of the year. Kinda like saying 'there seems to be more than just one leaf on my maple tree this year'.
You have a fair amount of research to do, but the very learned Zak Smith says that Noveske is top tier, with everything else below, IIRC. Colt's Mfg still makes a very good AR, however.
RockyMtnTactical
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I think LMT offers the best value of milspec quality and pricing. If it's too expensive, you might consider an LMT upper on a Stag lower.
Noveske is the best of the best IMO, but very pricey.
Colt aint bad, but I dislike their intentional use of non milspec parts, and the LMT doesn't have that issue and is cheaper... better barrels from LMT too.
I have not seen that yet. LMT is usually over or around $1k and Bushmaster is usually around $900.
Noveske is the best of the best IMO, but very pricey.
Colt aint bad, but I dislike their intentional use of non milspec parts, and the LMT doesn't have that issue and is cheaper... better barrels from LMT too.
I have not seen that yet. LMT is usually over or around $1k and Bushmaster is usually around $900.
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