AR gas system choice...
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CharlieDeltaJuliet
Member
Well SBR or suppressor they work good, they don't have to be both. The just handle the over pressurization of both the SBR or suppressor better. I shoot with a suppressor enough where there is a difference. Most will never have either one, a SBR or Suppressor. I will argue one thing. In a carbine length the piston system can be as accurate or better, but in a longer barrel the DI shines for accuracy. I shot a 20" 416, I would take my RRA against it anyday for grouping targets. If you put can on it though, I'll take the piston.
AR-15 SBRs (and all AR's in general) have come a pretty decent way since the early 1990's when the HK 416 was first created to appease some members of the U.S. special forces. A lot of the initial hype surrounding piston AR's has also shown itself to not be completely true. Further development of things like gas port sizes, spring rates, buffer weights, or even things like LMT's enhanced carrier or Noveske's switchblock have created SBRs that are both durable and reliable even when running suppressed.
chicharrones
needs more ammo
CharlieDeltaJuliet
Member
Auto426, Honestly then, tell me why Delta and a majority of DEVGRU are running piston guns? They have unlimited budgets and can pick any weapon they want. Hk,LWRC, and a few number of DI guns. The marines are adopting the M27 an Hk 416 variant to replace the SAW M249. They run so many rounds without issues...
You can argue all you want about how di guns have came around but tell the guys that use them aka Delta & DEVGRU they are using the wrong rifle, obviously they didn't get the memo.
I am done with the discussion because it is now becoming more about opinion then facts.. Read up on the HK416 for instance and why it is chosen. It's reliability and accuracy in suppressed and SBR has yet to be beat. Hence it's place in many many armies around the world and in our own special forces.
Take care us good talking to you, I am done about this, it is beating a dead horse...
As I said before the OP needs a good Colt,DD or so and be happy. Very few will ever reap the benefits of the piston gun. But they do have benefits...
P.S. I leave you with the comment of Larry Vickers, but you can search G3Kurz on HKPro, he worked on the project for years...
Vickers:
"The secret to the versatility being displayed here is quite simply the short stroke gas piston operating system. The same system that allows reliable functioning with a short barrel also keeps the operating parts cooler for a higher sustained rate of fire. It also validates my four basic questions that I recommend you ask yourself to determine whether a piston gun is right for you:
Do I have a need for a barrel length less than 14.5"?
Do I expect to shoot the gun suppressed extensively?
Do I have the requirement to shoot a wide variety of ammo?
Do I have the need to shoot a high volume of fully automatic fire?
If the answer is "no" to these questions, then a quality DI M4-style gun will fit the bill superbly. Just lube it frequently, use good ammo fed from good magazines, and clean it occasionally and you will have a gun that will give you excellent service for many thousands of rounds."
"If you have an existing AR15/M16/ M4 carbine and it works well for you now, replacing it with a HK416 may
not be justified. Most police and civilian 5.56mm carbine applications do
not require the level of reliable service offered by the HK 416. Plainly put, most folks can get along nicely with the old gas tube AR15 design weapon. But, it should be noted that a rumor from Colt Defense is that a new 5.56 NATO carbine is about to hit the market, the M5, which is a gas piston version of the M4. So, where there is smoke, there may be fire—or a gas piston.
If you want the most advanced evolu- tion of the AR15 system, combined with superb quality, check out the HK 416. Trust me, it’s a great piece of kit."
You can argue all you want about how di guns have came around but tell the guys that use them aka Delta & DEVGRU they are using the wrong rifle, obviously they didn't get the memo.
I am done with the discussion because it is now becoming more about opinion then facts.. Read up on the HK416 for instance and why it is chosen. It's reliability and accuracy in suppressed and SBR has yet to be beat. Hence it's place in many many armies around the world and in our own special forces.
Take care us good talking to you, I am done about this, it is beating a dead horse...
As I said before the OP needs a good Colt,DD or so and be happy. Very few will ever reap the benefits of the piston gun. But they do have benefits...
P.S. I leave you with the comment of Larry Vickers, but you can search G3Kurz on HKPro, he worked on the project for years...
Vickers:
"The secret to the versatility being displayed here is quite simply the short stroke gas piston operating system. The same system that allows reliable functioning with a short barrel also keeps the operating parts cooler for a higher sustained rate of fire. It also validates my four basic questions that I recommend you ask yourself to determine whether a piston gun is right for you:
Do I have a need for a barrel length less than 14.5"?
Do I expect to shoot the gun suppressed extensively?
Do I have the requirement to shoot a wide variety of ammo?
Do I have the need to shoot a high volume of fully automatic fire?
If the answer is "no" to these questions, then a quality DI M4-style gun will fit the bill superbly. Just lube it frequently, use good ammo fed from good magazines, and clean it occasionally and you will have a gun that will give you excellent service for many thousands of rounds."
"If you have an existing AR15/M16/ M4 carbine and it works well for you now, replacing it with a HK416 may
not be justified. Most police and civilian 5.56mm carbine applications do
not require the level of reliable service offered by the HK 416. Plainly put, most folks can get along nicely with the old gas tube AR15 design weapon. But, it should be noted that a rumor from Colt Defense is that a new 5.56 NATO carbine is about to hit the market, the M5, which is a gas piston version of the M4. So, where there is smoke, there may be fire—or a gas piston.
If you want the most advanced evolu- tion of the AR15 system, combined with superb quality, check out the HK 416. Trust me, it’s a great piece of kit."
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Bartholomew Roberts
Member
Since we are now in the "What do SEALs/Delta etc. use" stage of the DI vs. Piston debate, I'll just toss this quote out there:
"A December 2005 study conducted by the 10th Special Forces Group (Airborne), for example, which evaluated the HK416 and Colt's Close Quarters Battle-Receiver (CQB-R), concluded that CQB-R "out performed the HK416 in mechanical reliability." Source: MSGT Kevin M. O'Connor, USA, AAR HK 416 Operations Testing and Assessment (Memorandum for Record), Department of the Army, 10th Special Forces Group (Airborne), Fort Carson, CO, p. 4."
The CQB-R was eventually adopted as the Mk18 - a 10.3" DI rifle.
"A December 2005 study conducted by the 10th Special Forces Group (Airborne), for example, which evaluated the HK416 and Colt's Close Quarters Battle-Receiver (CQB-R), concluded that CQB-R "out performed the HK416 in mechanical reliability." Source: MSGT Kevin M. O'Connor, USA, AAR HK 416 Operations Testing and Assessment (Memorandum for Record), Department of the Army, 10th Special Forces Group (Airborne), Fort Carson, CO, p. 4."
The CQB-R was eventually adopted as the Mk18 - a 10.3" DI rifle.
JustinJ
Member
I don't know why you keep stating what it was designed for. Once again, designs can be improved upon. While "works" is a relative term, I agree, the DI system is sufficiently reliable for the vast majority of civilian uses. I own a number of DI AR's and uppers which I like and enjoy. But still, there are piston systems out there that improve upon the original design. Aside from less time cleaning, most of us will never notice any advantage provided by a piston AR over a DI AR. But that does not mean it isn't there.
This I agree with. However, most civilian users really gain no advantage by purchaing a $2K+ boutique AR over a properly built $1K AR. But we still buy them for various reasons.
CharlieDeltaJuliet
Member
Well Bartholomew, funny you can right down the road from me to FtBragg and Delta uses the 416. You do know the 416 has gone through 5 revisions since 2005. If you want to make it a pissing contest, I can show you proof of the 416 operating in conditions the colt won't, but I highly doubt we will be shooting at -75 degrees..etc. I am sorry that a lot of Tier 1 operators choose the 416 or the LWRC. But it is a fact.. I guess they just want to challenge themselves with a gun that isn't as good?.
They really are running these weapons for a reason...
I believe this is from your own post
"The Army’s Delta Force replaced its M4s with the H&K 416 in 2004 after tests revealed that the piston operating system significantly reduces malfunctions while increasing the life of parts.(BR: I'd like to see Larry Vicker's comments on that statement. My understanding is that the HK416 was developed for a fairly specific role.) The elite unit collaborated with the German arms maker to develop the new carbine."
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=324325
The army didn't choose a new carbine because the conditions they need for the average soldier, they don't need it. The Hk and others out performed the M4 just not the 3x they justify for replacement. I know all about the 416 testing.
Please just let it die, it's not a pissing contest, nor do I want to turn it into one. If you will read, I was one that told the OP to choose a DI gun. Piston guns are for specific needs....
We are way off topic and I am done debating the my dad can bear up your dad, here is my proof here is your proof.
Have a good day.
They really are running these weapons for a reason...
I believe this is from your own post
"The Army’s Delta Force replaced its M4s with the H&K 416 in 2004 after tests revealed that the piston operating system significantly reduces malfunctions while increasing the life of parts.(BR: I'd like to see Larry Vicker's comments on that statement. My understanding is that the HK416 was developed for a fairly specific role.) The elite unit collaborated with the German arms maker to develop the new carbine."
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=324325
The army didn't choose a new carbine because the conditions they need for the average soldier, they don't need it. The Hk and others out performed the M4 just not the 3x they justify for replacement. I know all about the 416 testing.
Please just let it die, it's not a pissing contest, nor do I want to turn it into one. If you will read, I was one that told the OP to choose a DI gun. Piston guns are for specific needs....
We are way off topic and I am done debating the my dad can bear up your dad, here is my proof here is your proof.
Have a good day.
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Bartholomew Roberts
Member
The HK416, so reliable it has only needed 5 revisions in the last 8 years! I think you've got a marketing slogan there CDJ.
A "lot" of "Tier 1" operators are using 416s and LWRCs are they? How are you defining "Tier 1" operators, how many of them are there, and how many are using an LWRC or 416 operationally 50% or more of the time. Since it is a "fact", you must have some facts to back that up right?
Most of the military guys I know choose the tool based on the task. Just because a Tier 1 carpenter uses a hammer to build a house doesn't mean a hammer is the best tool for cutting lumber.
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CharlieDeltaJuliet
Member
Well the Delta (tier 1) exclusively went to the 416 for standard operations. That is directly from Larry Vickers. DevGru has a portion that uses the 416 and LWRC (also according to LAV). While I know they choose specific weapons for missions, the 416 has its place or else the would grab an M4. Come on down to NC and go take LAV's carbine course and ask him about the uses. It is exactly what I stated above ...
The secret to the versatility being displayed here is quite simply the short stroke gas piston operating system. The same system that allows reliable functioning with a short barrel also keeps the operating parts cooler for a higher sustained rate of fire. It also validates my four basic questions that I recommend you ask yourself to determine whether a piston gun is right for you:
Do I have a need for a barrel length less than 14.5"?
Do I expect to shoot the gun suppressed extensively?
Do I have the requirement to shoot a wide variety of ammo?
Do I have the need to shoot a high volume of fully automatic fire?
If the answer is "no" to these questions, then a quality DI M4-style gun will fit the bill superbly. Just lube it frequently, use good ammo fed from good magazines, and clean it occasionally and you will have a gun that will give you excellent service for many thousands of rounds."
He will also tell you about the numerous forces that use the 416 (both domestically and abroad) since he had a hand in creating it, he is very proud to tell you about how it can be used more reliably in certain situations than the standard DI guns. I had no idea about LWRC's being chosen by DevGru until he mentioned it. No idea how many or which model, just know that at least one guy has one.
But yes. Consider Delta Tier1 and they use it exclusively. Just search and you can read about Delta adopting it over the M4..
Here is a quote from an American Special Ops article written a couple years ago...
It is believed that Delta force has now adopted the HK416 as its primary carbine, favoring it over the Colt M4A1.
The HK 416 is based around the M4 series of carbines and is the product of a colaboration between Delta Force and the German arms manufacturer, Heckler and Koch (HK). The resulting weapon is said to be less prone to malfunction. One of the main changes to the M4 design is the 416's gas system which is based around that found on the G36 (also manufactured by Heckler and Koch).
HK416s are available with 4 different barrel lengths :
D10RS (10.4 inches)
D145RS (14.5 inches)
D165RS (16.5 inches)
D20RS (20 inches)
A set of rails allow the fitting of aiming devices, illumination devices and grips as well as a AG416 40mm grenade launcher.
The HK 416 (D10RS) is also believed to be in widespread use within the elite US Navy counter terrorist unit, DEVGRU, otherwise known as 'SEAL Team 6'. DEVGRU commonly use the HK 416 fitted with an AAC ( Advanced Armament Corporation) supressor.
The 5 revisions are different types.. ie the IAR M27, the 416A5 with adjustable gas block, then the standard 416's in various lengths and designations.
No worse than the M16 with a 1-14 twist, no forward assist and numerous problems that plagued it for its first few years..
It is currently even being fielded by some Marines as a replacement for the M249. So it has a place and is not a fluke. Hence the M27, please realize there is a place for it. It doesn't take away from or make DI guns less desirable. It just does a a few things better and is used for that..
Please Bartholomew, we have done this dance before. I am not trying to convince people to buy a piston rifle, actually the exact opposite, but the fact is they are being used and are here to stay...
Thank you take care, please do not reference me unless you send a PM to me, I don't want to argue, this is the high road. I don't know why people get touchy when they hear that a piston gun is being used or so on... Drop it, please...
I respect you opinions and PM me if you wish to discuss this further...
The secret to the versatility being displayed here is quite simply the short stroke gas piston operating system. The same system that allows reliable functioning with a short barrel also keeps the operating parts cooler for a higher sustained rate of fire. It also validates my four basic questions that I recommend you ask yourself to determine whether a piston gun is right for you:
Do I have a need for a barrel length less than 14.5"?
Do I expect to shoot the gun suppressed extensively?
Do I have the requirement to shoot a wide variety of ammo?
Do I have the need to shoot a high volume of fully automatic fire?
If the answer is "no" to these questions, then a quality DI M4-style gun will fit the bill superbly. Just lube it frequently, use good ammo fed from good magazines, and clean it occasionally and you will have a gun that will give you excellent service for many thousands of rounds."
He will also tell you about the numerous forces that use the 416 (both domestically and abroad) since he had a hand in creating it, he is very proud to tell you about how it can be used more reliably in certain situations than the standard DI guns. I had no idea about LWRC's being chosen by DevGru until he mentioned it. No idea how many or which model, just know that at least one guy has one.
But yes. Consider Delta Tier1 and they use it exclusively. Just search and you can read about Delta adopting it over the M4..
Here is a quote from an American Special Ops article written a couple years ago...
It is believed that Delta force has now adopted the HK416 as its primary carbine, favoring it over the Colt M4A1.
The HK 416 is based around the M4 series of carbines and is the product of a colaboration between Delta Force and the German arms manufacturer, Heckler and Koch (HK). The resulting weapon is said to be less prone to malfunction. One of the main changes to the M4 design is the 416's gas system which is based around that found on the G36 (also manufactured by Heckler and Koch).
HK416s are available with 4 different barrel lengths :
D10RS (10.4 inches)
D145RS (14.5 inches)
D165RS (16.5 inches)
D20RS (20 inches)
A set of rails allow the fitting of aiming devices, illumination devices and grips as well as a AG416 40mm grenade launcher.
The HK 416 (D10RS) is also believed to be in widespread use within the elite US Navy counter terrorist unit, DEVGRU, otherwise known as 'SEAL Team 6'. DEVGRU commonly use the HK 416 fitted with an AAC ( Advanced Armament Corporation) supressor.
The 5 revisions are different types.. ie the IAR M27, the 416A5 with adjustable gas block, then the standard 416's in various lengths and designations.
No worse than the M16 with a 1-14 twist, no forward assist and numerous problems that plagued it for its first few years..
It is currently even being fielded by some Marines as a replacement for the M249. So it has a place and is not a fluke. Hence the M27, please realize there is a place for it. It doesn't take away from or make DI guns less desirable. It just does a a few things better and is used for that..
Please Bartholomew, we have done this dance before. I am not trying to convince people to buy a piston rifle, actually the exact opposite, but the fact is they are being used and are here to stay...
Thank you take care, please do not reference me unless you send a PM to me, I don't want to argue, this is the high road. I don't know why people get touchy when they hear that a piston gun is being used or so on... Drop it, please...
I respect you opinions and PM me if you wish to discuss this further...
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How is a piston in gas block better for shorter barrels, suppressed weapons, when using a wide variety of ammo an/or high volume, full auto fire? If it's greater reliability, why is it more reliable?
Designs can be improved and with refinement to gas port sizes, buffer weight and spring rate, problems with suppressed SBRs have been eliminated. Over gassing is eliminated which eliminates excessive fouling in the receivers.
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=33743
Even rifles with pistons in the gas block also exhibit increased fouling in the receivers.
Another question you've never answered- Using the same firing schedule, how much cooler does a PIGB BCG run? The reality is, very little gas and heat is carried to the BCG
http://vuurwapenblog.com/2010/05/06/heat-dissipation-insulate-or-circulate-tube-or-rod/
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
Touchy? I didn't realize that not sharing your opinion was considered "getting touchy.". I disagree with you and I am spelling out why I disagree with you.
More particularly, I think the "Delta uses it so its the best!" reasoning is spurious. SEALs used the M14 for a long time, not because they liked it or thought it was great; but because they had a bunch of them and it worked better than the M16 for over-the-beach stuff due to not having to drain the gas tube.
Every time someone recites the bit about the operating parts being cooler, I ask them the same question - "How does a 40F difference in temperature (from 86F to 126F) after 5 consecutive mag dumps cause Carpenter 158 steel to fail earlier?". I've yet to get an acceptable scientific answer explaining how that works.
I don't really care what gas system people use in their rifles any more than I care whether they have a gas or diesel engine in their car; what does bother me is reasoning that doesn't make any sense to me or is supported by good, factual evidence.
And the Marines are fielding the M27 as a supplement to the M249; not a replacement. The idea is to give the automatic rifleman in some squads a lighter rifle that will allow them to keep up with the squad but still provide limited suppressive fire, similar in concept to the original use of the BAR. You can't replace an M249 with an M27 any more than you could replace a semi-truck with a dually crewcrab.
Finally, if you don't want to reply, there is no rule here saying you must respond. You are free to quit participating in the debate any time you choose to do so.
More particularly, I think the "Delta uses it so its the best!" reasoning is spurious. SEALs used the M14 for a long time, not because they liked it or thought it was great; but because they had a bunch of them and it worked better than the M16 for over-the-beach stuff due to not having to drain the gas tube.
Every time someone recites the bit about the operating parts being cooler, I ask them the same question - "How does a 40F difference in temperature (from 86F to 126F) after 5 consecutive mag dumps cause Carpenter 158 steel to fail earlier?". I've yet to get an acceptable scientific answer explaining how that works.
I don't really care what gas system people use in their rifles any more than I care whether they have a gas or diesel engine in their car; what does bother me is reasoning that doesn't make any sense to me or is supported by good, factual evidence.
And the Marines are fielding the M27 as a supplement to the M249; not a replacement. The idea is to give the automatic rifleman in some squads a lighter rifle that will allow them to keep up with the squad but still provide limited suppressive fire, similar in concept to the original use of the BAR. You can't replace an M249 with an M27 any more than you could replace a semi-truck with a dually crewcrab.
Finally, if you don't want to reply, there is no rule here saying you must respond. You are free to quit participating in the debate any time you choose to do so.
CharlieDeltaJuliet
Member
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2011/06/15/usmc-to-replace-m249-saw-with-m27-iar/
Replacing is the key work...
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/10/robert-farago/officially-official-marines-replace-m249-saw-with-m27-iar/
Or this where is says ALL M249's will be replaced by the M27
http://www.militaryarmschannel.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=729
Even this says they will only keep nine per rifle company to beef up firepower when needed.
Replacing is the key work...
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/10/robert-farago/officially-official-marines-replace-m249-saw-with-m27-iar/
Or this where is says ALL M249's will be replaced by the M27
http://www.militaryarmschannel.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=729
Even this says they will only keep nine per rifle company to beef up firepower when needed.
CharlieDeltaJuliet
Member
I didn't realize you were a know it all unitl now. I PM'd you and even tried to get you to quit arguing because we hijacked the thread.. You sir are an ass, ban me, but you won't hear anything that isn't your opinion, and maybe I don't belong here but you damn sure don't especially as a moderator.. If I hijacked a thread and did what you did you would lock it.
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
The M27 is replacing the M249 for the role of Automatic Rifleman at the squad level. This is not because the recent USMC doctrine on the role of the Automatic Rifleman places a greater emphasis on mobility rather than suppressive fire.
To use an analogy, let's say I am married with a wife. I buy a Porsche 911 as a family car because my current operational doctrine for "family car" is based on the idea of driving my young wife around town quickly and in style. My young wife gets pregnant and has twins. I redefine my "family car" doctrine to include transporting family safely as priority #1 and reduce the emphasis on speed and style. Based on this doctrine I select a minivan as a new "family car". The minivan has replaced the Porsche in the "family car" role; but that was because I redefined the role, not because the Minivan was suddenly faster and more stylish than the Porsche.
Does that explain my point better for you? And much like the USMC keeping nine M249s per rifle company, I'd probably keep the Porsche around as a secondary vehicle all the same
To use an analogy, let's say I am married with a wife. I buy a Porsche 911 as a family car because my current operational doctrine for "family car" is based on the idea of driving my young wife around town quickly and in style. My young wife gets pregnant and has twins. I redefine my "family car" doctrine to include transporting family safely as priority #1 and reduce the emphasis on speed and style. Based on this doctrine I select a minivan as a new "family car". The minivan has replaced the Porsche in the "family car" role; but that was because I redefined the role, not because the Minivan was suddenly faster and more stylish than the Porsche.
Does that explain my point better for you? And much like the USMC keeping nine M249s per rifle company, I'd probably keep the Porsche around as a secondary vehicle all the same
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
Also, I haven't been a Moderator here for over 4 years and have no powers to lock, ban or otherwise enforce the rules. I am a member here the same as anyone else. Even when I was a moderator, I probably wouldn't have locked a discussion of the merits of piston vs. DI in a thread entitled "AR gas system choice" because it was hijacking the thread.
I'm sorry you find it so upsetting that I don't share your opinion that you felt a need to call me names over it. I assure you, there was nothing personal about the discussion from my point of view.
I'm sorry you find it so upsetting that I don't share your opinion that you felt a need to call me names over it. I assure you, there was nothing personal about the discussion from my point of view.
CharlieDeltaJuliet
Member
Ok, I am sorry, they are replacing 85% of them with M27's ..... It still beat out the Fn M249, and Colts Modified M4 for the spot... There must be a reason...
Everyone gets all butt hurt when a gas piston system is brought up. I argued against the OP getting one, but the simply can do everything a DI can and a few things better. Is it worth the price? That's why I told the OP to avoid them. I promise it doesn't take anything away from the DI gun, but it is like the Striker fired pistol versus the hammer fired. Depends on what you want and how you use it...
Everyone gets all butt hurt when a gas piston system is brought up. I argued against the OP getting one, but the simply can do everything a DI can and a few things better. Is it worth the price? That's why I told the OP to avoid them. I promise it doesn't take anything away from the DI gun, but it is like the Striker fired pistol versus the hammer fired. Depends on what you want and how you use it...
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