AR Inspection

[kcmarine]

We're looking at ARs, as my plethora of posts about the subject may indicate. I have some questions.

1) Would most stores be offended about the customer tilting the upper forward and looking at the bolt to see if the gas key is staked?

2) If I buy a carbine and want to get a 20 inch barrel for it along with an A2 stock, would I have to replace the carbine buffer tube with one for a rifle? Would a staked castle nut make that process harder?

3) How good are S&W M&P15 carbines? Looked at one, seemed to be a very nice rifle. How do they stack up value- wise against these builders?

A. Bushmaster
B. RRA
C. Sabre Defense
D. Charles Daly

I'd like the comparisons to be based on features, not on experiences, i.e., do they have the H buffer on current models, etc.

Thanks for the help in advance.

 

[Walkalong]

All good weapons. I liked my Bushy when I had it. I have no complaints about my RRA. I love my CD lower assembly. They, and the uppers/whole guns have gotten very good reviews from folks who know AR's. I don't have a Sabre Defense, but they have a great rep as well. I have never handled a S&W, but folks seem to like them too.

Pick whichever you can get in the configuration you want.

 

[huckster]

1. I wouldn't deal with a store that wouldn't let me at least look at the bolt carrier group. The stores I keep going back to will let me disassemble one completely before buying

2. Yes - if you want an A2 stock you're going to have to replace the buffer tube and buffer and probably the buffer spring as well (buffer and spring replacement will depend on gas system length and timing). Yes a staked castle nut will make the job a little more complicated but not impossible.

3. All the manufacturers listed make some fine weapons. You say you want comparisons based of features rather than experiences and that's good - the best way to do that is do some digging around on each of those manufacturer's websites and sift through the specification data posted. When you have a specific question about a feature that's either listed or absent on a manufacturer's website come back with a specific question - I bet this method will lessen the "personal experience" factor you say you're trying to avoid.

 

[taliv]

there's a gun store not too far from here where i've purchased a barrett 50, a wilson supergrade, a 3rd gen NV scope, and numerous smaller items. they wouldn't let me open up an AR to look at the carrier. I told them I wouldn't buy an AR from them w/o inspecting it. they seemed ok with not making that sale. whatever.

 

[kcmarine]

there's a gun store not too far from here where i've purchased a barrett 50, a wilson supergrade, a 3rd gen NV scope, and numerous smaller items. they wouldn't let me open up an AR to look at the carrier. I told them I wouldn't buy an AR from them w/o inspecting it. they seemed ok with not making that sale. whatever.

What brand was the rifle?

 

[taliv]

S&W

it had just been released. was not an M4 style. I wouldn't buy one now, fwiw

 

[kcmarine]

it had just been released. was not an M4 style. I wouldn't buy one now, fwiw

Why's that? Price? Quality? Other brands catching up?

 

[JimJD]

it had just been released. was not an M4 style. I wouldn't buy one now, fwiw

Taliv, would that have been a CMT/Stag Arms build, but branded as S&W?
I remember something about the early S&W's really being CMT/Stag Arms. When S&W saw it was a profitable venture, they basically said "Thanks guys, we'll take it from here". Or am I way off the mark?

kcmarine, before I picked up my AR a couple of years ago, I politely asked the co-owner of the shop if I could inspect it. He looked at me like I just insulted his mother. I inspected, everything looked fine, I paid and walked out the door.
His partner is a good guy (wasn't present that day), but after that buying experience, I decided to never shop there again. I've since seen him (co-owner) around in other places, turns out he's an ass. In addition, I found out many others feel the same way about the guy. No worries though, he's not the only game in town.

 

[jpwilly]

Opening up an AR is as simple as pulling the rear pin, pulling out the chargin handle and bolt carrier. If a shop owner won't let you inspect an AR in that way you should leave the store and let the SOB hang it back up on the wall.

 

[MrCleanOK]

1) Would most stores be offended about the customer tilting the upper forward and looking at the bolt to see if the gas key is staked?

A shop that won't let a serious customer pull the BCG for inspection shouldn't get your money. As a side comment, if this will be your first AR, be sure you know the difference between a well-staked and a poorly-staked gas key.

2) If I buy a carbine and want to get a 20 inch barrel for it along with an A2 stock, would I have to replace the carbine buffer tube with one for a rifle? Would a staked castle nut make that process harder?

For a traditional A2 fixed stock, yes. You will need a new buffer tube assembly. You could also get an Vltor rifle length modstock. These are made to go on either a rifle or carbine buffer tube. I should mention that I have never handled one of these, but do have enough confidence in the reports I have read to put a carbine modstock on backorder. Mil-Spec/Commercial buffer tube diameter rules apply.

3) How good are S&W M&P15 carbines? Looked at one, seemed to be a very nice rifle. How do they stack up value- wise against these builders?

A. Bushmaster
B. RRA
C. Sabre Defense
D. Charles Daly

No comment. Have only handled one of the rifles on that list.

 

[kcmarine]

Does the S&W have the mil-spec tube diameter?

 

[taliv]

Why's that? Price? Quality? Other brands catching up?

kind of all of the above. "The Chart", local support experiences, just generally lack of compelling value prop. I'm not saying it's bad. i haven't touched one in several months. just that for the money, I'd go with a daniel defense or charles daly

Taliv, would that have been a CMT/Stag Arms build, but branded as S&W?

dunno, probably. i've nothing against CMT, in any event

 

[JimJD]

Quote:
Taliv, would that have been a CMT/Stag Arms build, but branded as S&W?

dunno, probably. i've nothing against CMT, in any event

Oh, ok. I wasn't under the impression you had a dislike for CMT or anything. I own a Stag Arms (CMT) and love it. I can't speak for the S&W's, but was wondering if they went up, down, or stayed the same since CMT is no longer involved. That and if CMT/S&W partnership story was true to begin with.

 

[xbox360]

Well Charles Daly is your average gun, I saw a shotgun of Charles Daly in the gun shop the guy told me its not the best to be shooting alot but it will get the job done ( short shotgun great for homedefence)

 

[JimPGov]

Rock river arms is the rifle to buy.

 

[CoRoMo]

They are all fine guns, but I'd keep CD and S&W up for consideration before the others. Just my opinion.

If the store won't allow you to disassemble the gun, and won't even do it for you, why buy from them?

I've never had to remove a castle nut. Wouldn't doing so ruin everything? I mean, how would the castle nut be staked when reinstalled? Would you have to re-stake it in a different location?

 

[taliv]

well, you don't actually stake the nut. you stake the end-plate. either of those are pretty cheap to replace if you had to, but there are several indented areas on the nut that you could stake. so, you could put the nut back to the same spot, and then stake a different indention

 

[SwampWolf]

Rock river arms is the rifle to buy.

If for nothing else, their National Match two-stage trigger is reason enough.

 

[vanfunk]

If you're looking for an M4 for "serious social use", I'd strongly recommend the Colt 6920, the LMT Defender 2000, or the Noveske (I recognize that these brands are not on your list, but they are worthy of the first consideration). I had a number of problems with the 4 Bushmaster examples I've owned and thus cannot recommend the brand (non-existent quality control regimes). I do not feel there is any qualitative difference at all between RRA, Armalite, and DPMS. All are generally good, but they draw back on certain aspects of assembly or material quality to make their offerings more affordable. S&W seems about "mid-pack" and offer excellent customer service should the gun need it. The infamous "chart" is an excellent quick reference guide for the essential features of an M4, but is only truly useful if you understand the purpose behind the specifications.

HTH,

vanfunk

PS - If the purpose of the acquisition is for the sole purpose of being a fun range piece, then differences among the makers generally fade to "black". All factory AR-15s at this point are at least "good", with many individual examples from otherwise also-ran manufacturers very well put together and quite accurate. Like alot of things, the devil is in the details.