AR lower age

[mlaustin]

So, to my understanding, you have to be 21 to buy a stripper AR lower receiver, since they could just as easily be a pistol as a rifle.

What I can't find is what amount of "rifle" a lower receiver needs to be to count as a long gun (IE - at what stage of assembly, or does it need to be a complete functioning long gun before it counts). Does anyone know?

 

[kimbernut]

Stripped Lower AR

The stripped AR lower is the firearm even though on its own it cannot be used as a weapon. The lower is imprinted with the serial number and needs no other parts attached to be controlled as if it were a complete firearm. It is my understanding that a lower is designated at the factory whether it is a pistol or longgun lower.

 

[hatchetbearer]

I was under the impression that when you purchased it from the store, you could have it registered as either a rifle or pistol. obviously then you could be 18 and procure said lowers for the assembly of rifles, lest you get involved with that whole sbr business.

 

[stevemis]

That's incorrect. A pistol lower would be marked as such at time of manufacture. You don't get to choose or go back and forth.

One would think you'd be able to buy a non-pistol AR lower at 18, since it's not a pistol... but logic, reason and sanity don't apply to gun laws (see above).

An FFL will probably chime in soon enough, perhaps one from your state.

 

[Quiet]

A stripped AR lower is a firearm [18 USC 922(a)(3)(B)].

Since, it is a firearm and it does not meet the definition of a "handgun" [18 USC 921(a)(29)] or a "long gun" or a "rifle" [18 USC 921(a)(7)] or a "shotgun" [18 USC 921(a)(5)], it is designated as an "other".

Under Federal law [18 USC 922(b)(1)], FFL dealers can not transfer any firearm to a person under 21 years of age, with the exception of rifles and shotguns.

Since, the stripped AR lower does not meet the definition of a "rifle" or "shotgun", a FFL dealer can not legally transfer it to a person under 21 years of age.


18 USC 921
(a) As used in this chapter—
(3) The term “firearm” means
(B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon;
(5) The term “shotgun” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.
(7) The term “rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.
(29) The term “handgun” means—
(A) a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand; and
(B) any combination of parts from which a firearm described in subparagraph (A) can be assembled.

18 USC 922
(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver—
(1) any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than eighteen years of age, and, if the firearm, or ammunition is other than a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than twenty-one years of age;

 

[TexasRifleman]

That's incorrect. A pistol lower would be marked as such at time of manufacture. You don't get to choose or go back and forth.

You don't get to go back and forth, that's correct, but it's not marked from the manufacturer. How you build it the first time defines what it will be.

Receivers are neither rifles NOR handguns, they are "“firearm other than a shotgun or rifle". Firearms are items which don't meet the definition of handgun or rifle. Things like Mossberg PGO's for example. Those are not 'shotguns', they are 'firearms'. Things like semi Browning 1919's, they are not rifles, they are 'firearms'. A6 models would be, since they have a shoulder stock, but not the others.

Firearms are subject to the same age limits as handguns, 21 years old from a dealer.

Keep in mind this does not address whether you build it into a rifle or handgun. ATF still holds to the belief (though I personally think they would lose in court, since they have already) that once you built a pistol out of either a receiver only, or a rifle, that you can NEVER turn it back into a rifle. That would be making a Short Barreled Rifle, an NFA item according to them. Now, the Supremes ruled against them in the Thompson Contender case, but ATF has not changed it's position so be careful. ATF argues that Contenders are a different animal since it was sold as a kit, and that the Supreme Court ruling ONLY applies to a few complete Contender kits, not the whole system.

Here is the new 4473 section. Note there is now a separate box for receiver only, along with the instruction section for 18, explaining this.

 

[Quiet]

See BATFE letter (07-07-2009).
http://www.atf.gov/press/releases/2009/07/070709-openletter-ffl-gca.pdf

 

[TexasRifleman]

What I can't find is what amount of "rifle" a lower receiver needs to be to count as a long gu

According to ATF that would happen when a shoulder stock is attached.

So, a receiver with a stock attached from the dealer meets the definition of "rifle" in the GCA so you could buy a receiver only, with stock attached, at age 18.

Note that at that point it would be a violation of NFA to remove the stock and build a pistol out of it, that would be an SBR according to ATF.

ETA: Seems ATF is making it up as they go again, see below.

 

[Quiet]

When the new 4473 forms can out 11/2008.
AR lower recievers with shoulder stocks attached were being transfered to persons under 21 years of age as rifles.

Recently (09-2009), BATFE has been advising FFL dealers who did this to stop because an AR lower reciever with shoulder stock attached still does not meet the definition of a "rifle" or a "shotgun".
The firearm needs to be a complete "rifle" or "shotgun", in order for it to be transfered by a FFL dealer to a person under 21 years of age.


18 USC 921
(a) As used in this chapter—
(3) The term “firearm” means
(B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon;
(5) The term “shotgun” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.
(7) The term “rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.
(29) The term “handgun” means—
(A) a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand; and
(B) any combination of parts from which a firearm described in subparagraph (A) can be assembled.

18 USC 922
(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver—
(1) any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than eighteen years of age, and, if the firearm, or ammunition is other than a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than twenty-one years of age;

 

[TexasRifleman]

The firearm needs to be a complete "rifle" or "shotgun", in order for it to be transfered by a FFL dealer to a person under 21 years of age.

Not sure ATF would win that one in court, but if that's their position it is what it is.

The letter you posted first contradicts their own statements. In that first letter they give the specific example of a shoulder stock being the defining piece of a "rifle".
"eg buttstock indicating it is designed and intended to be fired from the shoulder"

That makes absolutely no sense at all. In that same thread you posted there is another FFL saying an ATF investigator told him the exact opposite, that attaching a stock was all that was needed.

I also notice that the FFL in that thread asked for this in writing and that request was refused.

Oh ATF, they are always fun to watch..... they just make it up as they go it seems.

 

[Quiet]

I believe the BATFE were trying to further clarify their position, since someone noticed that a reciever with a shoulder stock attached still does not meet the full definition of a "rifle" [18 USC 921(a)(7)] or "shotgun" [18 USC 921(a)(5)]. The full definition requires a bore and a reciever with just a shoulder stock attached does not have a bore/barrel.


18 USC 921
(a) As used in this chapter—
(5) The term “shotgun” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.
(7) The term “rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.

 

[TexasRifleman]

I believe the BATFE were trying to further clarify their position, since someone noticed that a reciever with a shoulder stock attached still does not meet the full definition of a "rifle" [18 USC 921(a)(7)] or "shotgun" [18 USC 921(a)(5)]. The full definition requires a bore and a reciever with just a shoulder stock attached does not have a bore/barrel.

Yeah, I just find it interesting that they refused the request to put it in writing, and they have other agents telling the opposite.

They just said "I got it off the phone, I don't have it in writing".

But, if I was an FFL I'd do it there way for sure.

 

[Quiet]

I find it interesting as well.
I think it's a case of the right hand and the left hand not talking to each other and each doing their own thing.
Typical government bureaucracy.

 

[TexasRifleman]

I think it's a case of the right hand and the left hand not talking to each other and each doing their own thi

Either hand able to send you to prison. Lovely

Thanks for posting that link.

 

[NavyLCDR]

So, to my understanding, you have to be 21 to buy a stripper AR lower receiver, since they could just as easily be a pistol as a rifle.

What I can't find is what amount of "rifle" a lower receiver needs to be to count as a long gun (IE - at what stage of assembly, or does it need to be a complete functioning long gun before it counts). Does anyone know?

Buy one from a private party so the 21 age limit doesn't apply.

Oh, wait, I see you are from California....

Never mind.

 

[hatchetbearer]

Buy one from a private party so the 21 age limit doesn't apply.

for the love of god dont do this. the laws are still the law, private party or not.

 

[Flyboy]

hatchetbearer, you're half-right: the law is the law, but the law only says an FFL may not perform such a transfer. A person under 21 can buy a handgun from a private seller, at least under Federal law (states vary on this point).

 

[NavyLCDR]

for the love of god dont do this. the laws are still the law, private party or not.

Hatchetbearer,

Two things...

First, in MOST states (Ohio NOT being one of them), the private party sale of a stripped lower AND handguns to 18+ persons is perfectly legal.

Second, I notice you only quoted the part of my post that you wanted to wank about. Why did you not quote the rest of my post?

Oh, wait, I see you are from California....

Never mind.

Since, in California, private party sales must go through an FFL, the 21+ age limit would still apply, hence my statement "Never mind".

 

[mlaustin]

Thanks for the info...some of this stuff is enough to give me a migraine...sigh.

I turn 21 in April regardless, so it's not worth violating some unclear ATF rule when I could just wait to build the AR I actually want, especially since, in my experience, CA FFL's are *very* careful about following the rules...just gives me four months to find the best deal on an upper and accumulate good deals on parts .

 

[Texpatriate]

There is a lot of conflicting and bad information in this thread.

1) A lower is a lower (other firearm on form 4473), not a pistol or a rifle.

2) It becomes a pistol or a rifle based on how you configure it when it is first built.

3) a pistol CAN later become a rifle, but it can never go back to being a pistol again after it is converted to a rifle.

This is what the ATF has ruled.

 

[Quiet]

There is a lot of conflicting and bad information in this thread.

1) A lower is a lower (other firearm on form 4473), not a pistol or a rifle.

2) It becomes a pistol or a rifle based on how you configure it when it is first built.

Since, the OP is in CA. You also, need to take CA laws into account.

Federal 4473 = handgun, long gun or other.
CA DROS = handgun or long gun.

Since, CA DROS does not take into account of other, stripped recievers are still processed as long guns.

In CA, a stripped AR lower reciever is transfered from a CA FFL dealer as:
4473 = other
DROS = long gun

So, in CA, you can only build a stripped AR lower into long gun and not a hand gun. Building it into a handgun, would be making a SBR, because the reciever was processed as a long gun under the CA transaction process.

 

[Texpatriate]

Sorry, the OP's location totally slipped my radar. Poor guy....