AR Pistol Concealed Carry - OAL Greater than 26”

[Captains1911]

Is an AR pistol with an overall length greater than 26” and without any type of vertical forward grip, still considered a pistol in terms of concealed carry laws? I’m trying to determine if it’s legal to carry loaded and concealed in a vehicle in VA with a valid concealed carry permit.

 

[mdThanatos]

While I am not a lawyer or play one on TV here is what I found under Virginia state law.

Virginia Title 18.2 Chapter 7 has the following definitions:

"Handgun" means any pistol or revolver or other firearm, except a machine gun, originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile by means of an explosion of a combustible material from one or more barrels when held in one hand.

"Sawed-off rifle" means a rifle of any caliber, loaded or unloaded, which expels a projectile by action of an explosion of a combustible material and is designed as a shoulder weapon with a barrel or barrels length of less than 16 inches or which has been modified to an overall length of less than 26 inches.

Based on the two definitions I don't see anything that discusses OAL greater than 26" and I don't see any statute that states what dimensions a pistol can have.

Title 18.2-308 has the following:
A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation, (i) any pistol, revolver, or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile of any kind by action of an explosion of any combustible material; It shall be an affirmative defense to a violation of clause (i) regarding a handgun, that a person had been issued, at the time of the offense, a valid concealed handgun permit.

C. Except as provided in subsection A of § 18.2-308.012, this section shall not apply to:

8. Any person who may lawfully possess a firearm and is carrying a handgun while in a personal, private motor vehicle or vessel and such handgun is secured in a container or compartment in the vehicle or vessel;

Title 18.2-308.01 has the following:

A. The prohibition against carrying a concealed handgun in clause (i) of subsection A of § 18.2-308 shall not apply to a person who has a valid concealed handgun permit issued pursuant to this article. The person issued the permit shall have such permit on his person at all times during which he is carrying a concealed handgun and shall display the permit and a photo identification issued by a government agency of the Commonwealth or by the U.S. Department of Defense or U.S. State Department (passport) upon demand by a law-enforcement officer.


If you can shoot it with one hand then I would say the state's definition would qualify it as a pistol and a valid carry permit would allow it in a vehicle, otherwise it would more than likely need to be unloaded and secured in order to be in a vehicle.

Again, I am not a lawyer and this is not any form of legal advice, just one man's interpretation.

 

[Captains1911]

Thanks for the references, that pretty much confirms what my understanding was, but im not a lawyer either.

 

[BSA1]

Why so long?

It seems to me that your problem is going to be convincing a LEO (and maybe a Judge) that it was originally built as a handgun and is not merely a rifle with the stock removed.

Document your gun well.

 

[Captains1911]

Why so long?

It seems to me that your problem is going to be convincing a LEO (and maybe a Judge) that it was originally built as a handgun and is not merely a rifle with the stock removed.

Document your gun well.

What do you mean? It’s an 11.5” upper on a lower with a pistol brace. So by definition it is a pistol. And yes, I have photos to document it beginning it’s life as a pistol.

 

[pdsmith505]

As far as Federal law is concerned, you should be good to go as well... as long as you don't have a forward grip, it is a pistol regardless of the length.

Your firearm, without a forward grip, meets the federal definition of a pistol:

A weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).

VA makes it more interesting though...

It shall be unlawful for any person to carry a loaded (a) semi-automatic center-fire rifle or pistol that expels single or multiple projectiles by action of an explosion of a combustible material and is equipped at the time of the offense with a magazine that will hold more than 20 rounds of ammunition or designed by the manufacturer to accommodate a silencer or equipped with a folding stock or (b) shotgun with a magazine that will hold more than seven rounds of the longest ammunition for which it is chambered on or about his person on any public street, road, alley, sidewalk, public right-of-way, or in any public park or any other place of whatever nature that is open to the public in the Cities of Alexandria, Chesapeake, Fairfax, Falls Church, Newport News, Norfolk, Richmond, or Virginia Beach or in the Counties of Arlington, Fairfax, Henrico, Loudoun, or Prince William.

The provisions of this section shall not apply to law-enforcement officers, licensed security guards, military personnel in the performance of their lawful duties, or any person having a valid concealed handgun permit or to any person actually engaged in lawful hunting or lawful recreational shooting activities at an established shooting range or shooting contest. Any person violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor.

Presuming you have a threaded barrel, it is designed to accomodate a silencer. So, be sure to keep your carry permit with you even if you aren't concealing it!

EDIT - Loudon county has it's own definition of pistol:

684.001 DEFINITIONS.
As used in this chapter, unless the context clearly requires a different meaning:
(a) “Sheriff” means the Sheriff of the County or his or her designee.
(b) “Firearm” means any weapon which will, is designed to or may be readily converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive, provided that stud nailing guns, rivet guns and similar construction equipment, neither designed or intended as weapons, shall not be deemed firearms.
(c) “Gun” means and includes any rifle, shotgun, pistol or other firearm, and also includes any air gun, air rifle, pneumatic gun or other similar device designed and intended to expel a projectile through a gun barrel of any length by means of explosive, expansion or release of compressed gas or compressed air.
(d) “Parcel” means any lot or other contiguous area of land in one ownership or in which all of the owners have joined in a written acknowledgment of the rights of all of them to shoot on all of such land, which constitutes, when combined, an area of not less than twenty acres.
(e) “Pistol” means a gun having a barrel of less than sixteen inches in length.
(f) “Recreational shooting” means the discharge of firearms or weapons, except bows and arrows, at fixed or moveable artificial targets.
(g) “Rifle” means a gun designed, made and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed and made to use the energy of an explosive or compressed gas or compressed air to expel a single projectile through a rifled barrel for each pull of the trigger.
(h) “Shotgun” means a weapon designed, made and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed and made to use the energy of an explosive in a shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore one or a number of balls shot for each pull of the trigger.
(i) “Starting pistol” means any device which is designed or functions to simulate the firing of a weapon by means of a primer or other explosive charge, but which cannot be readily converted for use as a firearm.

If you want to get even more into the weeds: Not having the forward grip simplifies the situation, but if you wanted to have a forward grip...

Franklin Armory produces the XO-26 "firearm": an AR-15 with an arm brace, forward vertical grip, and OAL >26".

It is neither a pistol nor an AOW (as long as you don't actually conceal it). The forward vertical grip means it falls outside of the federal definition of a handgun, no longer being designed to fire when held in one hand. The length being greater than 26" puts it outside the realm of AOW NFA status, since it is not capable of being concealed... unless you actually conceal it.

The letter from the ATF explaining this to Franklin Armory, which references the Auto Ordinance Thompson pistols with vertical forward grip, can be found on the first post on this thread at Calguns: https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=429106

IF you did attach a forward grip, you would still not be running afoul of Federal NFA laws, right up until you concealed it.

One more thing: Virginia law does not generally prohibit the non-concealed carry of loaded firearms in vehicles, but allows counties to prohibit such transport.

This section empowers the governing body of any county or city to, by ordinance, make it unlawful for any person to transport, possess or carry a loaded shotgun or loaded rifle in any vehicle on any public street, road, or highway within such locality.

So be sure to check your county ordinances as well.

EDIT - Loudon County is one of those that prohibits loaded rifles in cars:

684.01 SHOTGUNS OR RIFLES IN VEHICLES.
(a) No person shall transport, possess or carry a loaded shotgun or loaded rifle in any vehicle on any public street, road or highway within the County.

 

[Quiet]

Does a Title 1 Other with a vertical forward grip meet VA's definition of a "handgun"?

Since it has a vertical forward grip on it, wouldn't that make it not meet VA's definition of a "handgun".
Which requires the "other firearm" to be designed, made, & intended to be held in one hand.
(since it's not a Title 1 Handgun, it wouldn't be considered a "pistol or revolver")


Virigina Code Title 18.2 Chapter 7 Section 18.2-307.1. Definitions
As used in this article, unless the context requires a different meaning:
"Handgun" means any pistol or revolver or other firearm, except a machine gun, originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile by means of an explosion of a combustible material from one or more barrels when held in one hand.

 

[pdsmith505]

I might have interjected confusion...

Is an AR pistol with an overall length greater than 26” and without any type of vertical forward grip, still considered a pistol in terms of concealed carry laws? I’m trying to determine if it’s legal to carry loaded and concealed in a vehicle in VA with a valid concealed carry permit.

Does a Title 1 Other with a vertical forward grip meet VA's definition of a "handgun"?

OP has no vertical forward grip.