AR pistols with rifle buffer tubes

[Carl696]

I have seen pictures of AR pistols with appear to be rifle length buffer tubes. Is that legal? In effect all that they have done is remove the stock. The buffer tube is almost as long as the stock is +/- 1/2' .
Would shouldering it with out the stock make it a SBR?

 

[dogmush]

That's a very good question. One there's not a clear answer on.

First part, most rifle length receiver extensions on AR pistols I've seen, and the advice I've seen given, have the threaded hole in the back either plugged or drilled out so that you can't actually screw a stock on them. That seems to make it legal as far as the pistol side is concerned.

Second Part: We all know the ATF says shouldering a Sig brace is illegal. They have previously said that those pistol buffer tubes with cane tips on them were OK, and they have recently said that using the pistol buffer tube(or something on it) as a chin or cheek rest is OK. Whether you can tuck the receiver extension into your shoulder nice and tight to stabilize the pistol seems to be a matter of it's currently OK, but no one has asked recently.

 

[yugorpk]

Pretty simple. The ATF hasnt said its illegal so its legal. There is no actual prohibition about putting either a rifle tube or a carbine tube.

You can still get a cheek weld on it to be able to actually hit things. Also if its over 26" OAL you can put a forward grip on it. The full length tube gets you there.

 

[Carl696]

It seems to me having the screw plugged would not prevent one from sliding on the factory butt stock. Granted it would not be secure but in that application who would want it to be

 

[dogmush]

It seems to me having the screw plugged would not prevent one from sliding on the factory butt stock. Granted it would not be secure but in that application who would want it to be

The ATF I guess.

They said if it doesn't take a butt stock you are good to go.

I could speculate, given how they have ruled on other things (The Sig Brace most notably), that if you actually DID slide an A2 stock on (with a pistol length barrel) and shoulder it they would consider that act to be manufacturing an SBR, but that is speculation. You could write them a letter and ask.

Pretty simple. The ATF hasnt said its illegal so its legal.

I was specifically responding to his question about shouldering it without the stock. The ATF HAS said that shouldering an AR pistol makes it an SBR and is illegal. But they said it about a pretty specific configuration. And they said it in a letter, which is non binding on most of us. They might very well think shouldering a bare receiver extension is illegal. without either doing it in front of an agent, or writing and asking them it's hard to say what they'll prosecute. So not all that simple.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Most choose pistol buffer tubes to be safe, but as Yugorpk pointed out, there isn't actually any prohibition on using carbine or rifle buffers, only on installing stocks.

Having said that, I wouldn't want to be contacted by LE whilst having a carbine tubed "pistol" and a carbine stock not already installed on a legal rifle in my possession, unless I also had an extra 16"+ upper to go with the stock.

 

[ugaarguy]

Since this is a legal question I've moved it here.

 

[yugorpk]

IF the ATF ever said that that is was OK to shoulder a SIG brace then they obviously made a mistake that they later corrected. The SIG brace might be some sort of brace for the forearm but what it also is is a butt stock that probably gets used more as a buttstock than as a forearm brace. All the ATF did was recognize that fact and put out a warning that if it was used as a shoulder stock it would be considered creating an SBR. It doesnt seem that hard to understand. A tube with no stock on it is not a butt stock and the ATF to my recollection has never said it was. If you shoulder that tube its not going to be the most comfortable thing for sure but its really not something you'd want to do in front of an ATF agent unless you just need something to do. Knowing how much we all go shooting in front of ATF agents that is.

 

[dogtown tom]

Carl696 I have seen pictures of AR pistols with appear to be rifle length buffer tubes. Is that legal?

Yes.

In effect all that they have done is remove the stock.

Wrong.
A "rifle" buffer tube doesn't mean the firearm ever had a shoulder stock.
As long as the firearm is not assembled with a shoulder stock it is not and never will be a "rifle". Add a shoulder stock to that AR pistol and you've created either a rifle or an SBR.

Would shouldering it with out the stock make it a SBR?

No.

dogmush That's a very good question. One there's not a clear answer on.

ATF has issued a very clear Determination Letter saying a rifle length buffer tube is not a shoulder stock by itself.
Here is a thread on AR15 with several ATF Determination Letters:
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_122/525036_Request___Scans_of_any_letters_from_the_BATFE__that_pertain_to_AR_pistols.html

First part, most rifle length receiver extensions on AR pistols I've seen, and the advice I've seen given, have the threaded hole in the back either plugged or drilled out so that you can't actually screw a stock on them. That seems to make it legal as far as the pistol side is concerned.

It's not illegal to attach a rifle length buffer tube to an AR pistol......period. Doesn't need a hole plugged or drilled either.

dogmush ....I could speculate, given how they have ruled on other things (The Sig Brace most notably), that if you actually DID slide an A2 stock on (with a pistol length barrel) and shoulder it they would consider that act to be manufacturing an SBR, but that is speculation. You could write them a letter and ask.

No need to ask........that's clearly attaching a shoulder stock to a pistol *and making an SBR).

 

[Ryanxia]

Dogtowntom kind of hit it but a couple things. As he said rifle tube on a pistol is A OK, doesn't need anything extra however I've know people in the past that were concerned with an overzealous agent hitting them with constructive possession (assuming you have stocks lying around that fit right on there) and they decided to grind out the holes in the bottom where the stock would click in. Another option is to use the A2 buffer tube since regular AR15 stocks can't fit on it and a lot of people don't have extra A2 stocks lying around.

Secondly and more importantly (some of us may disagree on this point because it isn't clear cut) the recent ATF ruling that shouldering a pistol with a Sig Brace is redesigning it into an SBR, with that logic they could absolutely say that shouldering any pistol to fire is redesigning it into an SBR. Just my 2 cents.

 

[yugorpk]

Overly concerned people should do whatever they feel makes them sleep better at night. It doesnt mean their concerns are valid though. Phantom ATF agents being behind every blade of grass as it were.

As far as the shouldering thing it doesnt seem too much of a stretch to me to read that Sig Brace ruling to show they consider shouldering a pistol to be using a pistol in the fashion as a rifle is used. That is "shouldered" The brace itself is far secondary to its actual positioning on the shoulder which is one of the primary definitions of a "shoulder fired" rifle.

 

[SSGT PRIDE]

Good info here as well! From the Horses Mou...Er...Letter!

http://www.typicalshooter.com/atf-putting-a-stock-on-an-ar-15-lower-does-not-make-it-a-rifle/

A reciever is never considered a firearm unless it has had an upper barrel attached to it...So any lower you get can be made into a pistol. The only problem I could see is the Carbine tube and if you just happened to have the stock with you....Might not look so good??


I just bought a regular lower and then bought a pistol buffer tube/spring and "BRACE" that the ATF says is legal.

Here...

http://www.kakindustry.com/ar-15-pa...s/pistol-buffer-tubes/shockwave-package-black


I'll document the build...keep info on it ...Throw the leftover stock junk into my parts box ...and live happily ever after. I have a whole family of AR's and M4's and will have parts soon enough to rebuild them all.

 

[yugorpk]

That's not always true. Many states require registration as a pistol for pistol builds. The feds might be happy with what your doing but they wouldn't be the ones stacking charges against you in state court. If I buy a receiver that I want to build as a pistol in Washington I need the dealer to transfer it to me as a pistol on a FIR-652-001.

 

[Ryanxia]

A reciever is never considered a firearm unless it has had an upper barrel attached to it...

Just to clarify a receiver is not classified as either rifle or pistol until it has been built into one or the other. It is still considered a firearm though as just a bare receiver (hence why we have to do a 4473 when we order stripped lower receivers).

 

[Carl696]

To muddy the waters even further I want to use an 80% lower that I will finish to 100%.
Am I correct that until I put on an upper on it,it is neither pistol or rifle?

 

[pjeski]

To muddy the waters even further I want to use an 80% lower that I will finish to 100%.
Am I correct that until I put on an upper on it,it is neither pistol or rifle?

That is correct.

 

[dogtown tom]

SSGT PRIDE Good info here as well! From the Horses Mou...Er...Letter!

http://www.typicalshooter.com/atf-pu...ke-it-a-rifle/

A reciever is never considered a firearm unless it has had an upper barrel attached to it...So any lower you get can be made into a pistol. The only problem I could see is the Carbine tube and if you just happened to have the stock with you....Might not look so good??

100% wrong. Read the ATF letter. A firearm receiver is ALWAYS a firearm. Period.
To be a rifle, the receiver/frame/AR lower must have a rifled barrel and a shoulder stock attached.
To be a pistol, merely a rifled barrel and a single pistol grip are attached.

yugorpk That's not always true. Many states require registration as a pistol for pistol builds.

Not exactly.
First, very FEW states have any firearm registration of any kind.
Second, a firearm frame or receiver is not a handgun or long gun under Federal law, but at least one state requires AR lowers to be designated as handguns on a state registration form (not the 4473).

pjeski

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl696 View Post
To muddy the waters even further I want to use an 80% lower that I will finish to 100%.
Am I correct that until I put on an upper on it, it is neither pistol or rifle?

That is correct.

No.........not correct.
An "upper" by itself or even an upper receiver with a rifled barrel attached to a frae/receiver/AR lower is still not a rifle.........a rifle MUST have both a shoulder stock AND a rifled barrel.

Simply putting a rifled upper on an AR lower makes......a firearm. Not a pistol, not a rifle.

 

[yugorpk]

Not exactly.
First, very FEW states have any firearm registration of any kind.
Second, a firearm frame or receiver is not a handgun or long gun under Federal law, but at least one state requires AR lowers to be designated as handguns on a state registration form (not the 4473).

In my state we do not have handgun registration. What we do have is a system where if I purchase a handgun from a dealer I have to file an additional form when the handgun is purchased. If a receiver has to built into a handgun it is "supposed" to be sold with a pistol transfer application. The dealer sends a copy to the state and keeps a record. With UBC's in WA if I transfer a pistol or pistol receiver ( AR included ) to someone that needs a BG check ( non relative ) then they need to run it through a dealer and another pistol transfer form gets completed. Its not really registration as it doesnt apply to everyone and didnt apply at all to the secondary market until recently. Its more of a state filed sales receipt that has reporting requirements that are very similar questions on it. Other states ( many . As more than a couple ) do similar things to their subjects.

State law will put you jail just the same as federal will. If I build a pistol on a state transferred rifle receiver I will have some explaining to do ( Not really . This NEVER comes up as a real problem just as the rifle to pistol thing never does anywhere else but I digress . ) Its more of a dealer issue. I know of 3 dealers who were put out of business for not fully complying with the state regs.

 

[Caliper_Mi]

In my state we do not have handgun registration. What we do have is a system where if I purchase a handgun from a dealer I have to file an additional form when the handgun is purchased. If a receiver has to built into a handgun it is "supposed" to be sold with a pistol transfer application. The dealer sends a copy to the state and keeps a record. With UBC's in WA if I transfer a pistol or pistol receiver ( AR included ) to someone that needs a BG check ( non relative ) then they need to run it through a dealer and another pistol transfer form gets completed. Its not really registration as it doesnt apply to everyone and didnt apply at all to the secondary market until recently. Its more of a state filed sales receipt that has reporting requirements that are very similar questions on it. Other states ( many . As more than a couple ) do similar things to their subjects.

Sounds pretty much like Michigan's "pistol sales record" except that ours has always been on all sales.
It's definitely registration.

 

[yugorpk]

Sounds pretty much like Michigan's "pistol sales record" except that ours has always been on all sales.
It's definitely registration.

Its only registration if all the guns in the state are required to be registered. In Washington until the new UBC thing came into effect , which still doesnt cover all transactions, the entire secondary market was ignored. I could buy a gun at a dealer who filled out the state transfer form then turn around and sell it the next day on the secondary market with no paperwork. I can still give it to a relative with no paperwork.

 

[Carl696]

Thanks all, for the info,still some grey areas. Just ordered my 11" SAA upper. I think they have good product for a good price.($349.00 with BCG and charging handle reg $400.00)upper is head spaced and test fired.
I will try to post some pix as build progresses.

 

[Jackal]

Isnt it wonderful how logic ATF's "logic" works? If firing a pistol shouldered turns it into a rifle, then firing a rifle without shouldering it should turn it into a pistol... :banghead: