AR slamfire using CCI SR primer - pic included

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IMtheNRA

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Well, after loading thousands of rounds of .223 using CCI SR primers, I finally had a slamfire. I pulled the trigger once and two rounds fired. Here is a pic of two cases - the tiny firing pin mark is the round that slamfired, the other is a normal mark for comparison.

I picked up a ton of harder CCI Bench Rest primers to use in my AR from now on.

001SlamfireCCISRprimer.jpg
 
How about a light trigger pull. Hammer delayed by the sear just long enough to fire. Hammer following the bolt down. Factory trigger or replacement?? :confused: Factory built rifle or parts gun?? :confused:
 
LE6920 - all guts are OEM, entire rifle built by Colt. I only added an optic and a UBR stock.
 
The CCI 400 seems to be soft or thin cups. The way the primer flowed shows the firing pin/hammer was not down/dropped. Strange ?? High primer maybe?
 
I had problems with it in 1970 when I first started loading .223 for my new Colt SP-1.

Seems I didn't get all the primer crimp out of all the cases.
Priming with the Rockchucker primer arm.
Those that went in kicking & screaming got crushed, and would sometimes slam-fire when loading.

I fixed that with a RCBS primer pocker swager kit.
And started hand seating primers with an RCBS hand primer tool so I had better feel of what was going on?
Never happened again in the last 40+ years with various AR's and a Mini-14.

I use nothing but CCI standard SR primers.

How are you removing primer crimps?

rc
 
IMO, that first mark is a little deeper than one might expect. The free floating pin will leave a little mark when the bolt closes, but that seems a little too deep.

Pic in the middle is a normal mark from the firing pin on an AR style rifle:

ammochambered.jpg
 
imthe nra,
Your primers don't look like they are fully seated, i.e., just below flush. The indentation on the right looks awful deep. Could be an artifact of the photo. But if they are pooching out a bit it can cause a slam fire. Agree with RC a hand primer is best, especially for .223. I prefer the Lee as I can't get the RCBS to work with the .223. Also, those both appear to have crimped primer pockets. Did you remove the crimp? If not the primers might not be able to seat fully.
 
I see a lot of dings on my AR primers, but nothing that makes me feel apprehensive, oh and I also use CCI SR exclusively with no slam fires to date. And I also have to agree that those primers don't look like they are seated deep enough.
 
Fellas - no primer in my experience remains below flush after the round has been fired.

But, you are on to something... I only recently started to use de-crimped cases, and it took a little experimenting to get my Dillon swager adjusted to maximum effectiveness. Despite this, some crimps are a little stubborn because of differences in case head thickness.

The first lot of reloads into decrimped cases had a few hang ups and I had some primers that were merely flush with the case head. None that stood out, but a few flush primers. I thought that I had caught them all, but it is quite possible that this slamfire occured with a flush-seated primer.

BTW, the firing pin indentation is pretty tiny, about what I get on chambered but unfired rounds. It looks bigger than it is because of the raised circle around it, caused by primer flow into the firing pin hole.
 
Despite this, some crimps are a little stubborn because of differences in case head thickness.
I have found I have to sort by headstamp and adjust the RCBS swager support rod accordingly for each brand.

"One size fits all" doesn't work with primer swager rod adjustment in my experiance.

rc
 
Oh yeah, I learned that lesson too! :)

I'm actually rethinking the use of crimped brass due to this reason. While it is nice to have free brass, I am wondering if the hassle is worth it...
 
Are you sure you didn't have simple "doubling" from a the sear letting go on you and/or the hammer riding the bolt forward? ? Check disconnector spring (right side up?) and that you aren't so light on the trigger that the disconnector doesn't get to properly function in the first place.

These are more likely than a true slamfire generated from the primer itself.
 
Not saying this is your problem, but my dad bought an AR 15 with stainless heavy barrel. He had the trigger so light , I did not like it .And once when i was there to help zero it in, it fired twice and scared the @#%* out of me. I refused to shoot it till he did something to the trigger. He said i was too light on the trigger, but i don't think so. Anyway he sold it so don't have to worry about it now. Just saying.
 
That's no tiny firing pin mark. My Rem 700 leaves hits like that and I am dealing with a seriously thumping caliber. Are you POSITIVE that your firing pin channel isn't dirty enough to have the firng ping stick forward? You are dealing with a floating firing pin...there is a reason that CCI has "Mil Spec" primers and that is it. The same thing is known to happen in SKS's. Don't be so quick to blame the primer when there is more than one reason that this can haapen.
 
Are you sure you didn't have simple "doubling" from a the sear letting go on you and/or the hammer riding the bolt forward?
Agreed. Check this. I had an AR double on me a couple of times. I replaced the whole trigger setup. Standard ones are cheap.
 
Ubr buttstock

Is the correct buffer and action spring installed with the UBR stock? If bolt speed is increased with a more heavy spring, might have something to do with it. The ejector spring should be correct also.
 
Are you POSITIVE that your firing pin channel isn't dirty enough to have the firing ping stick forward?
An AR-15/M16 firing pin cannot stick forward.
Unless it is broke in half ahead of the cotter-key pin that holds it in the bolt carrier.

The bolt carrier positively retracts it out of the bolt when it telescopes off of the bolt during unlocking.

It cannot ever reach the primer again until the bolt carrier collapses over the bolt on locking and allows it to reach the primer again.

The floating firing pin "ding" happens after the bolt is closed & locked.

rc
 
Buried deep in our culture is the idea that high primers cause slamfires. This is part of a coverup, created by the ex Ordnance Officers who worked for the NRA. In the early 60’s Garands started getting into the hands of civilians and they started having slamfires. Rifles were blown up no doubt. Since the M14 had the exact same bolt mechanism as a Garand (civilian could not own M14’s) and Colt had an incredible anti M14 smear campaign going on, it seems obvious to me why the still Army faithful NRA tech writers did not mention that the Garand/M14 mechanism would slamfire, and slamfire out of battery, with sensitive primers.

So they created a story that only “high primers” and worn out receiver bridges (specific to Garands/M14’s) were causes for slamfires. This passed the buck to shooters as the Army could not be responsible for old worn out guns and sloppy ammunition. They never ever, ever mentioned primer sensitivity. I believe that is because firing pin energy is intrinsic to a design and for the Garand/M14 the firing pin is only retracted on cam down. Garands and M1a’s will slamfire out of battery (and in battery) with sensitive primers. The AR15 design extends the firing pin on cam down which is why you never hear of out of battery slamfires in AR’s.

Primer sensitivity is in fact the primary cause for slamfires in mechanisms with free floating firing pins.

As for high primers, it is exceedingly difficult to get a high primer to go off.

Someone here has a link to a CCI page which states that high primers are the most frequent cause of misfires. The anvil has to be set firmly on something and it has to be against the pellet.

Here is an example of a high primer that did not go bang.

http://www.reviewsofthings.com/guns/9mm_luger_primer_failure_misfire_dud.html

Wayne Faatz wrote an article about slamfires in Garands in the American Rifleman. It was because he had one with Federal primers, the most sensitive primer on the market. He ran an experiment. He seated rifle primers high and they would not slamfire. Instead the bolt face seated them flat. He then tried pistol primers and they would not slamfire and the bolt face seated them flat. He finally inserted a flattened anvil in the pocket, hard seated a pistol primer, which was now above the case head, and that went off when the bolt was dropped.

So it is possible for a high primer to go off if the anvil is sitting on something hard, like extra primer anvils, washers, coins, spring coils, shellfish, lava flows, tombstones, etc. Undoubtedly one will go off if the pocket is really shallow. But then why did it not go off when it was a factory round?

The Army was having all sorts of issues, slamfires, primer sensitivity, etc, with the early M16’s. Early 223 ammunition used sensitive commercial primers. The quote from the primer sensitivity section was
“Contrary to the requirements for 7.62 mm ammunition, which specifies that the FA34 primer is mandatory, no attempt has been made to standardize on type of primer for 5.56 mm ammunition”.

You can find this at http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/index.html.
This is on page 4-69 of the "Report of the M16 Review Panel Appendix 4 Appendix 4 Ammunition Development Program"

To reduce slamfires in AR’s the military required the use of a less sensitive primer, the #41 primer. The Army did three things: they reduced the firing pin weight, required a thicker cup in the primer and a less sensitive primer mix.

I stole this picture from AR15.com. The early heavy firing pin is on top.

OriginalAR15firingpin.jpg

I had one slamfire in a NM AR15 with the new brass WSR. I dropped a round in the chamber, hit the bolt release, and the rifle discharged. My scorer, when he got up to shoot standing, the same thing happened to him, he was shooting Federal match in his AR. Since then I found out he had another slamfire with Federal match and stopped using those primers. We both modified our standing loading routine, we now ride the bolt down half way with the charging handle, before letting go.

This might be of interest


Tavor 21 Slamfire video on youtube.

Notice how many rounds the guy fires. If he had a mechanical problem he would have recurring slamfires, but he did not. When you see the slamfire, notice that the finger is not on the trigger. He was running Federal American Eagle (federal primers) and Winchester ammo. Winchester redesigned their primers in 1999 to make them more sensitive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bu8Dwj7Ey8k
 
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There's also the possibility that it was an unintentional bumpfire. Were you shooting from a bench? Is it possible that you didn't have a tight enough grip on the rifle, and it was able to move backwards during recoil?

I've had this happen to me, and seen it happen to others, when shooting an AR from a bench.
 
If you're going to spend the additional money on Benchrest primers why not just buy CCI #41 primers which are specifically made for semi-auto rifles?

Also, in a pinch you can use Magnum primers because the cup is thicker.

I have not has a slam-fire with .223 ammo but I did have several in one day with 30-06 ammo in a Garand. No, they weren't my reloads, they were Greek Surplus ammo.

BTW, those primers look a little high in the picture. High primers can assist a slam-fire in some cases.
 
This may be unrelated but I have a Russian made made SKS I bought packed in cosmoline with matching serial#s it appeared to be unfired ? I had what seemed to be slamfires with numerous brands of factory ammo including Lupa. This double tap went on for about 300rnds and then went away :confused:
I first suspected the free floating firing pin, but now I think it was the trigger group breaking in.
 
This may be unrelated but I have a Russian made made SKS I bought packed in cosmoline with matching serial#s it appeared to be unfired ? I had what seemed to be slamfires with numerous brands of factory ammo including Lupa. This double tap went on for about 300rnds and then went away :confused:
I first suspected the free floating firing pin, but now I think it was the trigger group breaking in.
Did you fully disassemble the bolt and clean out all the grease/crud from within the firing pin channel?


This step is often overlooked when de-cosmo'ing an SKS.
 
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