AR trigger, fastest lock time?

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Strykervet

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Anyone KNOW for sure which AR trigger has the fastest lock time? A list of triggers and their lock times would be great if anyone has it.
 
Not certain but I suspect it will be the Geissele Hi-Speed.

Runners up will be all other Geissele triggers and the AR Gold, I expect.
 
i could be wrong, but i think the "hi-speed" line is a 2-stage match trigger with a decent lock time. the 3gun trigger is the "Super dynamic" line
 
Practice will overcome the fastest and the bestis, and mostis every time. Become proficient with what you have and you will have more money for ammo to practice with...chris3
 
i could be wrong, but i think the "hi-speed" line is a 2-stage match trigger with a decent lock time. the 3gun trigger is the "Super dynamic" line
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Correct. The Hi-Speed is really intended for High-Power rifle competition, not 3-gun or other action shooting, although you could use it for that if you wanted to. The Geissele 3-gun triggers are the Super 3 Gun and Super Dynamic 3 Gun, which differ only in the shape of the trigger bow and the name. Both are a quasi-single stage with a short light pull and short reset. They are not faster than the SSA or SSA-E in terms of lock time.

I use the SSA and SD3, both are great. I have not used the Hi-Speed.
 
ball3006 said:
Practice will overcome the fastest and the bestis, and mostis every time. Become proficient with what you have and you will have more money for ammo to practice with...chris3
Click to expand...
Wow, thanks for the insight. As a former SDM instructor with nearly 30 years of shooting experience, I've never heard that before! Or maybe I have... Based on your advice, I'm guessing you'd recommend the fully parkerized Oly trigger group? You know, with sandpaper-like engagement surfaces that can't be polished? As for ammo, I have more than I can use. I hand load and reload too.

To the rest of you, thank you for your help. I've played with many of them, and I know which one feels the best (for the application).

At the moment, I'm torn between the SD-3G and the SD-SSAE for a SOPMOD copy I'm building. I like the high speeds too, I do imagine those would have the fastest locktime among the Geissele triggers (I hadn't seen them before, they have a LOT of stuff now). I may put one of those in my Grendel one day. I didn't know about those to be honest, I haven't been to their site in awhile, and I didn't see them at the shop (where I compare them). So that puts lock time to rest regarding Geissele, I suppose.

But for action type shooting and 3G matches (which I'd like to get into soon) I really like that 3G trigger. This rifle will also be a HD rifle, and I'd like to be able reach out and touch something with it too. Sort of jack of all trades as it were. Long range precision shooting would not be the norm for this rifle. I may do it, but that isn't the purpose.

Anybody see a definite advantage using the SD-3G over the others for this purpose? I like the fact that it feels like a 1 stage, that seems quicker to me. I guess based on this, the lock time isn't as much an issue, but I'd still like to know who has the all-time record (I'd like to use it in my Grendel, but may just end up using the hi-speed).

I heard the 3G had the fastest PUBLISHED lock time, but I can't find proof.

Howard, thanks for the info. Any kind of reduction on that order is sufficient I would think. Does anyone know the numbers for the 3G? Like I said, I heard it was fastest published, but this was a while back before they had 20 different triggers.

I think that would make a great article considering all the options out there.

Thanks again, I appreciate the help. Looks like Geissele is pretty popular. I had Rainier Arms set one aside for me, the 3G. But I will still need the fastest lock time for the Grendel. If anyone knows of anything better (faster) than the hi-speed, please let me know.
 
Z-Michigan said:
Correct. The Hi-Speed is really intended for High-Power rifle competition, not 3-gun or other action shooting, although you could use it for that if you wanted to. The Geissele 3-gun triggers are the Super 3 Gun and Super Dynamic 3 Gun, which differ only in the shape of the trigger bow and the name. Both are a quasi-single stage with a short light pull and short reset. They are not faster than the SSA or SSA-E in terms of lock time.

I use the SSA and SD3, both are great. I have not used the Hi-Speed.
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Can you point me in the direction of a list of numbers?
 
I heard the 3G had the fastest PUBLISHED lock time, but I can't find proof.
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Check the Geissele PDFs but I don't think the 3G is any faster in lock time than the SSA. It has basically the same hammer. However, the 3G can be shot ridiculously fast by highly skilled shooters - supposedly on the order of 4-6 aimed shots/second.

But for action type shooting and 3G matches (which I'd like to get into soon) I really like that 3G trigger. This rifle will also be a HD rifle, and I'd like to be able reach out and touch something with it too. Sort of jack of all trades as it were. Long range precision shooting would not be the norm for this rifle. I may do it, but that isn't the purpose.

Anybody see a definite advantage using the SD-3G over the others for this purpose? I like the fact that it feels like a 1 stage, that seems quicker to me. I guess based on this, the lock time isn't as much an issue, but I'd still like to know who has the all-time record (I'd like to use it in my Grendel, but may just end up using the hi-speed).
Click to expand...

I ran a 2-gun match this past weekend using a SD3 equipped lower, and it was absolutely wonderful. For match use, for a reasonably skilled shooter, I can highly recommend it. And I can recommend it for both short-range fast use and for longer range precise use - in a competition setting.

HOWEVER, for home defense use, it has a very short and light pull with no warning before the break. Under stress that is generally a bad thing. I read your statements above and you're obviously a very experienced vet and shooter, and for you it might be OK, but for >98% of people it would not be a good choice for home defense type use. But it is so wonderful for competition use, you should at least try one out if you live close to Geissele's shop, or a dealer that has a test rig setup.
 
i think you're looking for the wrong stuff here.

lock time would be an important consideration for shooting high-power or similar competition.

for action type shooting, a short reset is more important. this is where the SD3G excels. however, be advised that if you have a ton of trigger time on an AR to the point that you have substantial muscle memory, the SD3G will take some getting used to, because it's not really like any trigger i've used before. (edit, except oddly, the trigger on barrett's m95)

they work fine for long distance too. I installed the SD3G in my 3gun AR15 and used it as a "secondary" in the mammoth sniper challenge. it certainly wouldn't be my first choice for a long-distance trigger though

edit: and for all out lock time, nothing comes within several orders of magnitude of the etronx trigger, but you can't get that in an AR
 
Thanks again for all the advice.

I don't have lock time and reset confused, although my wording may be confusing. I'm actually looking for two triggers. I need to know the fastest lock time for a Grendel I have, I want that one to be as accurate as possible.

Currently, I am building a new M4. For that one, I need the fastest reset and short pull. But I'd like to get one like that that has the fastest lock time as well.

So in short, I just want to know the fastest lock time and then make my decision from there.

But from what I've read on here, demos I've tried, I think I'm pretty sure I'm going with the SD-3G for the M4. The shop recommended the Wilson 3G as having a shorter pull and faster reset, but I recall it having two distinct stages. For this rig, I want it short and sweet, and if it feels like a one stage, that is a huge plus.

Regarding this:
"HOWEVER, for home defense use, it has a very short and light pull with no warning before the break. Under stress that is generally a bad thing. I read your statements above and you're obviously a very experienced vet and shooter, and for you it might be OK, but for >98% of people it would not be a good choice for home defense type use. But it is so wonderful for competition use, you should at least try one out if you live close to Geissele's shop, or a dealer that has a test rig setup."

Yeah, the army uses obscenely stiff triggers. This may be in part why. But an experienced shooter never leaves the finger on the trigger except to take the shot. Seen AD's this way. I've never had an AD or fired a shot I didn't intend to, and I've been pretty stressed! I agree, it probably wouldn't be suitable for everyone, but for me I think it will be the bees knees.

Pretty sure I've got my picks then. I intend on using the SD3G for the M4 and one of their hi-speed versions for the Grendel later on.

That is unless someone has some proof on a sub 4 millisecond trigger?

Great answers, thanks a lot, really helps narrow it down.

I'll keep checking in to see if anyone uncovers a gold mine of data, but for now, I've got my picks. SD3G and the hi-speed.
 
Man, I really don't hope that some newb doesn't stumble across this thread and get it in his head that he needs to be chasing lock times. I very seriously doubt that the difference in lock times between the fastest triggers and the slowest is really appreciable.
 
No argument a good shooter - someone who seriously competes at the upper levels - can appreciate a fast lock time trigger. They will have the gun that goes with it to see the result - something with a barrel shooting well under 1MOA, and ammo developed to match.

For an action gun, the cycle time for reloading will have been optimized too - shaving tenths of a second for the next shot is also as important as shaving tenths of an inch off groups.

What we also need is a column on the lock time chart that gives that figure, too. The "average expected reduction in group size" is something I'd like to see expressed numerically, and done in a manner that is reproducible. Because, no one's done it. Unfortunately, "I'm a great shooter and I say it works." is the #1 marketing spiel of the advertising industry. Check the box of Wheaties in the pantry for proof.

While a good shooter may certainly be interested in the incremental increase in accuracy, the new shooter brings it on themself spending money on peripheral accessories. It's part of the testosterone challenge, to force logical thought into the process of improving performance in physical mechanisms. Far too many focus on Brand and an emotional assessment of peer group heirarchy when they choose an accessory. They get what they ask for, a tricked out 2MOA gun that costs $1500 - and shoots as accurately as a $600 one.

This OP isn't that guy - if you have such a chart of lock times, with the average improvements TOO, that would be great. Until then, I have stay right here in Missouri and wait for someone to show visible evidence it will do any good at all. I say that because - if the OP, experienced as he is, has to ask on the internet for something that would be common knowledge as a proven improvement, and can't get it, then maybe it simply doesn't exist.

Is it really that proprietary they need to hide the data?
 
Man, I really don't hope that some newb doesn't stumble across this thread and get it in his head that he needs to be chasing lock times. I very seriously doubt that the difference in lock times between the fastest triggers and the slowest is really appreciable.
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A new shooter would do well to read post #5 and no others. This discussion really isn't for new shooters.

Someone who is skilled with a rifle can really appreciate the benefits of shorter lock time, and the completely separate and largely unrelated benefits of a short pull and short reset (SD3). I can hear and feel the difference in lock time between my GI and Geissele triggers when I'm dry firing, or at the range. But I've been shooting rifles for 20+ years, most frequently in the last 6-7, and I practice a decent amount (though probably nowhere near as much as the OP).

I don't think there will be a consistently quantifiable benefit from shorter lock time, as it will depend on how steady the shooter is and how well they control the pull relative to perfect sight alignment on target. Someone who is stone cold shooting at a stationary target may see little benefit. Someone who has great timing but trouble holding perfectly still may see a lot more benefit. The benefit will probably vary between benchrest, bipod, prone, and other positions.
 
Jesus... $280 for a trigger.... Thats over half the cost of my AR.
 
Jesus... $280 for a trigger.... Thats over half the cost of my AR.
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Well, you could spend $100 on a RRA two stage. Put 2000-3000 rounds through the rifle and then when the trigger fails you can spend another $100 on another trigger and then look forward to having to replace that one too.

As far as the lock time goes, sorry, I have a hard time believing that anyone can perceive the 6ms difference in lock time. I mean, come on, that's 6/1000ths of a second. If you can perceive the difference between a stock GI trigger and any model of Geissele, you should be able to; but I doubt that it's due to the lock time.

I could see it making the difference between a .2" group and maybe a .3" group at 100 yards in a benchrest application, but I doubt that it makes much difference in any practical application.
 
Good shooters can tell the difference, far too many have said they see it to argue that point.

What the new shooter should take away is that a high dollar accessory isn't the best choice for a low dollar barrel and low round count skills. They are better off with a $40 travel adjustment screw on the GI LPK, and a few years under their belt shooting the extra $200 in ammo they could buy.

If I was shooting the top 30% of 3 gun at the state level, I'd get the AR Gold, no doubt. I built a hunting AR in 6.8SPC, all it got is the AGP lower travel adjustment screw and a Stag LPK. It trimmed a good 75% of the creep and grit out. Works as good as my civilian guns now.

It's the OP's option to look to lock times as one facet of improving scores, so where's the data to help him out?
 
Tirod, good posts.

If anyone does have lock times, publishing them in this thread as a collection would be beneficial to some. I'll check it from time to time.

Yeah it is important that new shooters don't worry about this thread just yet. A good NM AR and going to local matches is the best thing you can do, I think. I learned more learning to shoot NM than I learned anywhere else. Doing that can make you an outstanding shooter, and you don't need the latest tactical whizbang. I learned it using a burst fire issue M4 that had a horribly long and stiff trigger. Yes, you CAN shoot NM with a non FF 14.5" bbl. And do it reasonably well if the rifle is good for 2MOA, all considering. A plain M16 would have been better, a semi AR15 better yet.

As to the importance of lock times, well, the difference is that when you pull the trigger with a slow lock time vs. a fast lock time, say they are pulled simultaneously, the one with the faster lock time will already have the round going downrange when the slow one ignites. The difference? Not much if you can't harness the accuracy in the first place.

That is why I stress shooting the NM, or at least learning HOW and becoming somewhat proficient at doing it. If and when you can, then accuracy becomes about eliminating variables. The positions and the technique are most important, then gear can come into it. The faster lock time elimnates a variable of time that is important because of what is happening at just that moment. It is also one of the things that make bolt action rifles inherently accurate.

When I build an AR, I definitely build around the barrel. It dictates the entire build. If I use a Satern Custom 6.5G, I'll use a two stage trigger with two definite stages. I currently have a tuned RRA NM, and it is a very fine trigger. The only reason I'd consider another is if it has a significantly lower lock time, hence this thread. This rifle is built to run and here is a good application for a fine target trigger.

For the M4, I did go with the SD-3G. I plan on using this a lot and I do have quite a bit of training. In fact, I trained SDM's in the army, squad designated marksmen, and it was the best job I ever had. I would highly recommend AGAINST using this trigger for anyone without considerable experience. An AD is very real and very dangerous and much more likely with a trigger like this if you don't know what you are doing, and if you even have half a guess, I'm talking to you. Geissele has a similar warning on the package. Also, if you don't specifically need a trigger like this, I can see it hampering accuracy instead of improving it for a variety of reasons.

That said, as far as fast triggers go (not lock time but reset and pull) this SD-3G is very fast and feels like a one stage. The Wilson 3G feels even shorter, feels very much like a hair trigger. These two are probably the fastest speed triggers. The SSA would be the best for a defensive rifle in general; I don't plan on shooting anyone but do plan on shooting 3gun and a lot at the range. As for the tack driver, the fastest lock time is still the most desireable, but without numbers, not worth changing out a good 2 stage that you like. For me, that is still a tuned RRA NM.
 
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